I don't think Joe Quesada was feeling hated enough in '07. This should fix THAT.

Marvel is tanking... quickly. Stan Lee's original vision is being erased and Marvel is becoming one of those mega-corporations that does what it wants and no longer cares what the die-hard fan thinks. I think this might spell the end. Spider Man has always been my favorite superhero, because he was just like me: wanting to do right, juggling the needs of his personal life and the career he has chosen, and putting himself before others day after day, all the while living on the edge of poverty, the truly anti-heroic hero. Now, I'm ashamed... and I wish JMS had stuck to his guns.

Um, this is why I don't read Marvel anymore. Actually, I don't read comics anymore, but if I did, I still wouldn't read Marvel.

@NefariousNewt: I don't understand why they keep refusing to listen to the fans when they're doing so badly. I mean, don't they want to keep the fans that they still have? I doubt that this is going to bring any new readership to Spiderman, but it's definitely pissed its fans off.

Sam Raimi perked up for a moment upon hearing this, then went back to thinking of ways to re-release more Evil Dead DVDs without actually making anything new.

@TruculentandUnreliable: Because they got a taste of the big time with starting their own movie studio and starting to re-tread all the comic book characters as action movies. Seen the previews for Iron Man? They are taking everything that was and erasing it, going for the quick an easy buck. And sadly, the geeky masses are still feeding them. The comic book empire doesn't mean as much in the Internet era as it did in its heyday. It's so sad.

@mitchel_stevens: Let's just hope it keeps him occupied enough to stay away from The Hobbit.

Ok, this was as big of a hit to my geek-ego as when Jean Grey was killed off (first time, time after that, etc)... But, there is something to how it was done. Peter loves his Aunt, so much that he'll give up everything for it. MJ loves Peter so much she'll do anything for him to have a "happy life". Also, MJ made a "side-deal" with Mephisto which has yet to be seen (Did she want to retain her memories so then becomes Jackpot to still be w/ Spidey?). In truth, this is all my mind's justification to rationalize what has happened while I go back to my Dr. Strange alter & hope he sets everything right...and soon!

@hortense: You are cracking me up today.

@NefariousNewt: I haven't seen the previews for Iron Man, but I can only imagine. *sigh*

Pretty Stupid move for Parker to make, isn't he supposed to be soo smart?

"hrmm let's see deal with the devil... how can I loose?"

I don't think JMS had any guns to stick to. It was all decided and he just had to live with it. At the end of the day, he doesn't own the characters and the ultimate decisions for them rest with editorial. But that said, making a deal with a devil to keep an old lady alive rather than staying married to a hot young redhead? Who does Marvel think its audience is these days?

@TruculentandUnreliable: I think part of the problem is that they think that they major fan base is a sort of dead-end--like, if all they do is keep the fans that they have, then they'll still go under, just slowly. The only way they can survive is by getting new fans, and they think that this necessarily entails alienating the old ones (which it often does).

I don't know. I think this actually illstrates one of the problems that comics have as a medium--the never god-damn END. Spider-Man has been going for a bajillion years; his history is getting crowded, his story permutations are getting exhausted, Marvel has squeezed the last drops of vitality from the idea.

This isn't the first amazingly dumb thing that they did with Spider-Man. I haven't been able to read that shit for years.

@DocGratis:
hey, you can't blame him. in his world, bleaching his hair and assuming his dead uncle's name automatically made him invisible to an entire country searching for him.

You would think the SpideyClone stories would have taught them there lesson about this type of wholesale FUBARing.

I like the alternate-alternate-alternate universe tale where he settles down a little and him and his long lost brother make a fortune releasing a line of entertaining board games!

@braak: This is true. There are only so many ridiculous plotlines you can have before you have to start doing shit that people may not like.

The only Spiderman I like is Zombie Spiderman. Ditto for Fantastic 4.

@currerbell: I liked Ultimate Fantastic Four for a while. Primarily because of how much fun it is to listen to Warren Ellis' technobabble.

Going to wait for Newsarama to run their interview with Quesada and then I am writing him an actual letter letting him know why this move is making me almost entirely quit comics... that is until they ruin Ultimate Spider-Man. At least I still have that.

And Powers.

Quesada thinks they're alienating potential fans but all they've done is alienate long time fans. Jag-offs.

Once upon a time, Marvel set itself apart from its distinguished competition by letting their characters grow and change. Peter Parker grew from awkward teen to responsible married man. But for the past twenty years, Marvel has forcibly let their characters not just stagnate but go backwards.

Aunt May should have died years ago. Peter Parker should have passed his torch to a suitable replacement. Reed and Sue Richards should have stayed retired. Etc., etc., etc. If Marvel wasn't so afraid of actually refreshing their lineup, as opposed to "revamping" it, they might have stories that appeal beyond the diminishing die-hard audience.

How bad has JMS' run been? I thought the nadir was hit with the whole rape-super-twins storyline.

Poor guy, maybe his Z War script will get picked up by a good director.

So...when you write for a big name like Marvel, you don't actually have any say in what you write? No say? Whatsoever? What? Really? They like, put a gun to your head and say "This is the plotz, write it or we kill your puppy and your baby and your mama?"

Or is this Straczynski guy just being a backpedaling douche?

@Seth L: He wrote a script for Z War? As in 'World War Z' by M Brooks? 'Cause if so, I may need to shut my office door and enjoy a private moment.

Re: the Marvel evolution/de-evolution/stagnation:
I think that maybe there is some truth to the allegation that the "re-envisioning" of the old old old characters may be alienating some old school fans, but it interested me in heroes I had long written off as snorefests, goody2shoes, or just plain outdated tech/science.

I like the Ultimates series best when they are for characters/groups I was pretty meh about previously - ie, Fan 4, Spidersnore, etc. I am still not sure how I feel about Ult X-Men. I also loved 1602, not just for the Gaiman. Or maybe. I also enjoyed Vess's Spiderman. So I am probably showing my true colors here in that I prefer Sandman/Sin City/Moore, etc type stuff. But I will say that devil-dealing Peter P is infinitely more interesting to me than old Peter. And I don't mind the total mulligan approach to new geneses for old heroes.

And zombies. More zombies please.

@currerbell: I don't know. I felt like 1602 was kind of a half-baked parlor trick.

On the other hand, I liked Sandman okay. Especially because? It ENDED.

There's no third act for superhero icons, they have to be rebooted, reborn, re-re-re-, ad nauseum. It's part of their very nature. I only read them when great writers (Morrison, JMS, Ellis) are playing with them, because they push the stories as hard as they can with the limitations given. It's all about keeping the properties fresh for the multimedia development.

That all said, this was a horrid story. The choice was between his wife and making a deal with satan to save his aged aunt from death. For how long, an hour or two? Having Aunt May in a coma as even more silliness, as the character likely would have argued against saving her by means of infernal compact.

The truly creepy part of all this is the fetishistic fantasy aspect. The older male audience (who actually buy the main marvel line) want a young and single swinging bachelor spidey. Why is that? Perhaps because it's easier to draw cheesecake Frank Cho boobbots than it is to write believable female characters in domestic situations? We've gone from women in refrigerators to women in hell. Can't wait to hear Joe Q wonder why women aren't reading more Marvel comics...

Man, This is just disgraceful to me. I knew it was going to happen, but I figured they'd kill MJ off with one of those "Give up her liver so Aunt May could live."

I think that Joe Q. has allowed his love for a PARTICULAR TIME in Marvel era to corrupt his judgement here. He has said over and over that he hates MJ and always loved the Spidey with Gwen Stacy. And so he has pushed the title back into that mold that he loves. For me? I'm a tad bit younger, and love Spidey with MJ, so he pisses on MY spidey for his. That's fine, that's your prerogative, but I don't need to stick around for it.

I have spent a lot - A LOT - of money on comics over the past year or two (and my entire life for that matter), and have found myself disillusioned with the whole industry. Peter Parker loves his aunt may, we all know that, but he wouldn't make a deal with the devil. NO era of spidey should allow for that.

Now, MJ making a deal with the devil? I could have believed that.

@FrnkSmth: Completely agree with that last part! :)

Peter Parker is way more mature than that I call bs on that entire storyline. What has marvel done now

Another boneheaded move by Mr. Quesadilla? Shocker.

@dirtybacon:
@shudderstep:

There is no 3rd act in comics because the creators/fans won't let go of whatever era they have the nostalgia for. Fans won't let characters change, evolve, grow, because we want to cling to that moment in time (childhood) when all was right with the world and that's fine. But how many times can you tell the same story and keep it fresh? You can't, if you insist that characters must stay the same.

A good creative team can help a character evolve. Frank Miller did if for Batman with "The Dark Knight Returns". Unfortunately, these moments are too few and far between.

@ceejeemcbeegee: Well, I think part of the problem is that the medium--the way it's published now with monthly issues, and not the word/art arrangement itself--isn't really suited to Aristotelian story modelling. If you're a publisher, you need to keep people buying the issues every month, and so there's probably a lot of fear that deviation from whatever is essential to the system is going to alienate them.

Like, I can't kill off all the X-Men and replace them with new X-Men, because people are only buying the books because they like the old X-Men. Obviously, I can--especially if I'm Grant Morrison, and can just run around doing whatever insane bald Scottish shit I want to--but the system of constant monthly issues for properties-in-perpetuity doesn't suit it.

@braak: Yes - the END made it great. I feel a weird sense of despair when I realize there is a lack of finality. Maybe that is why I prefer plots/characters/collections that terminate, never really thought of it that way.

Half-baked parlor trick? Yeah, probably, buy boy do I love to watch Gaiman wank rhapsodic. Most of those "very special episodes" are parlor tricks (i.e. marvel zombies v. army of darkness was too CrossOver-tastic!!! even for me), but they really satisfy the alterna-craving.

And a hell yeah to Dirty Bacon & MJ making a deal with the devil. I would buy that.

@ceejeemcbeegee:
Respectfully, it's more than just the nostalgia (though that is pervasive), it's the media deals. WB isn't going to let Batman die or have the Robin take over permanently, that would affect the movies/tv/toy deals.

What's really sad is it's the inventive stories, like Dark Knight and Red Son, that really excite new readers. By playing it safe and keeping everything status quo they appease a readership that's aging and shrinking.

The quote that matters here, when someone asked what the Jack Kirby tradition was, the answer "Jack Kirby would make a new comic". Without the new, it's just more of the same in slightly different wrapping.

@shudderstep: It's the--well, one of the problems--when characters become corporate-owned properties. Corporations don't know what to do with them, or care, just so long as they can keep them making money.

@shudderstep:
@braak:

We're all on point here: it's a combination of issues I fear the industry just doesn't care to address.

I saw this coming when Spawn & gen13 blew up and DC/Marvel responded with variant covers and massive crossovers. And then the "Batman" movie was a success, and all money-grubbing hell broke loose. So sad.

Oh i can see it now, Auntie May dies anyway, MJ asked to be there when this all clears up and Mephisto is having his last laugh... Then it all comes to the same line again after learning a valuable lesson, love conquers all, the devil is up to no good and Auntie May is not here anymore.

This might be a chance to prepare for the next Spiderman Movie, where he marries MJ, Auntie May is going to die and he makes a deal with the devil (so Mr. Quesada gets tons of money for the licensing).

Sigh, in any case, time will tell. And since I'm more of a "did you bought the last number? Let me see" reader i just don't care that much.

Now i can relate how fans can be really flustered about something like this, Blade Trinity??? To me Blade continues at Underworld, and ends there too.

@ceejeemcbeegee: Ah, good. We can all agree that the industry sucks. Now, how to carefully and cleverly undermine and destroy it? Should I find some legitimate means, or just go after Quesada with a shovel?

@braak: or you could read more webcomics

@braak: I vote for the shovel... but only if you document the attack to share with the readers here. (Don't worry, we won't tell anyone).

@currerbell:

Yuppers, here's a script review:
[www.iesb.net]

I just read the original JMS newsgroup post. At the end of the day, he sure does like typing "at the end of the day."