In other words, Tolkien was a genius, Lewis was his evangelistic buddy, and most popular fantasy writing in the 50 years since has been adapting and/or reacting to one, the other, or both.

pissing off warner bros., walt disney studios, new line cinemas, AND lucas films? that takes some seriously hairy ballz

Seeing as Star Wars is just another fairy tale about a peasant boy who needs to save a princess who is being held in a giant fortress by an evil king and an evil wizard, with the help of a rogue and a good wizard who teaches him magic, it's not really surprising.

I saw some Beowulf, Bridge to Terabitha, and Eragon in there too.

And was that one of the witches from the Wizard of Oz?

@arto:
we refer to her as the bitch; time saved

@Bellatrixie: I'm sure the images seemed appropriate, and the lines from Jeremy Irons flowed right in with the other narration...but I'm stuck on the even-more-mashed-up name, except for for sticking "bridge to" pretty much anywhere in the title.

I think hollywood is just high on epic fantasy movies since LOTR was so succesfull. Something works and they run with it till it's dead and beaten.

Now, if you had a Horus Heresy trilogy from Warhammer 40,000, THAT wouldn't be repetitive. Granted, it wasn't turned into garbage. The trailers would have 40k fans everywhere out of their seats screaming, "Lupercal!"

Joseph Cambell adresses this in his book "The Hero With A Thousand Faces". (published in 1949). Lucas was inspired by him...

"A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man"

@foofer: Yeah, in retrospect I'm embarrassed by my own comment.

Tolkien's whole approach was drawing on the very nature of the epic and the myth.

/hangs head

Ever heard of the "Hero's Journey"? It was defined by Joesph Campbell as a transformative story that is pretty much in our cultural heritage and stories since time immortal.

If you think that's repetitive then you probably think ALL stories are repetitive. Good luck trying to get out of reading that kind of tale in any media: books, games, film..hell even news.

@foofer: Thanks for bringing this up. One of the main reasons Star Wars bridged the SciFi gap is because it masters story telling.

I am not sure this proves Star Wars is more fantasy than science fiction. The idea that a lowly child must become a hero and save the world is the backbone to all sorts of literature. This trope is not exclusive to either fantasy or science fiction.

I think the real discussion as to whether Star Wars is fantasy or science fiction should be focused on "the Force." Is the Force too far removed from reality to be considered real science fiction? Many science fiction stories use elements that have no physical basis, so this too is an imperfect measure.

Without precise definitions of each category laid out at the start, the argument will only go in circles. The fact that those definitions are quite debatable says something about the reality of these genre distinctions, as well. I like to think of literary genres existing on a spectrum with few precise borders.

Wow, this would be totally different if someone did it with COP MOVIES. Those are all so very different from each other! *eyeroll*

So, what we're saying here is, fantasy stories share themes and motifs? How fucking weird is that?

@Gansura: There is no actual science in Star Wars. By the usual definition I get from the dudes who think SF is stuff that could TOTALLY HAPPEN, that means it's fantasy.

@garro: Gotta love the grim dark future of only war.

Too bad any movie would probably screw it up real bad.

@JennaW: But Han did the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs!

@johnnyla: Please don't start spouting the Galactic Gasbag's talking points.

I always loved how when first asked about the inspiration for Star Wars, Lucas said he was inspired by the old Buster Crabbe Flash Gordon serials, but as soon as someone mentioned The Hero With A Thousand Faces, Lucas started saying "Oh yeah, it was totally about that. And The Hidden Fortress."

Star Wars is not quite SF, but space opera:

[en.wikipedia.org]

David Brin wrote a critique that applies to much/most of the Joseph Campbell-type "But thinking of plots and compelling ways to relate characters to each other is *haaarrrrd*" school of storytelling:

[www.salon.com]

"Why is George Lucas peddling an elitist, anti-democratic agenda under the guise of escapist fun?"

Re-reading it, I find this juicy quote:

"It is essential to understand the radical departure taken by genuine science fiction, which comes from a diametrically opposite literary tradition -- a new kind of storytelling that often rebels against those very same archetypes Campbell venerated. An upstart belief in progress, egalitarianism, positive-sum games -- and the slim but real possibility of decent human institutions."

One of the things I love about Firefly/Serenity is how it takes the space opera form but paints the "genuine SF" tableau of progress, egalitarianism, positive-sum games, and decent human institutions with negative space: the tragedy of the show is that the progressive browncoats lost to the authoritarian maniacs. It's a superior re-telling of Star Wars.

Then there's Jacqueline Carey's Sundering series, which re-tells Tolkien and which I haven't read yet. :(

@noncornbatant: The Sundering series is great! You should definitely check it out.

I just showed Blade Runner to my girlfriend the other night. She was born the year it came out and had never gotten around to seeing it. The first thing she after it ended "That looked like sci-fi made by grown-ups".

Star Wars is just paint by numbers hero journey, Star Trek is nerd wish-fulfillment and most of the fantasy genre is just a copy of a copy of a copy of Tolkein. Finding truly original ideas made for and by grown-ups takes some doing, but they're out there.

Sure, if you abstractify anything enough, it all starts to look the same. Geez, all these adventure stories have heroes, and villains, and magic thingies, and quests, and , and, and evil places the heroes have to go to, and battles and stuff. Wow, they're all the same.

It's all in the details. Try as we might, no one has ever managed to capture the bittersweet beauty and sadness of LotR (not even the movies). You can plug in all the appropriate plot points and Joseph Campbell references and still fail to create an emotionally moving piece of art. And that's all I care about in the end.

And whether or not it's fantasy or sci-fi? Seriously? Does anyone care besides the wage-slaves doing shipment at Borders?

@onewithchaos: Seeing what has happened with the Alien and Predator franchises, the RE movies, yes, you're right. Now if you had Dan Abnett or Graham McNeill writing a screen play and some, solid director. Maybe?

haha that is a pretty good mashup...I am not going to bother arguing which were good and which were not, I am simply going to enjoy a little smirk and a laugh and go on the next story.

Interesting that only 2 of the included references feature female protagonists (Terebithia and The Golden Compass, and both children's books/movies). I'm really trying my best not to be obnoxious, but if people are looking to revive a cliche, maybe mix the genders up a bit?

@OMG! Ponies!: I was going to come in and back up the whole "SW = fantasy" thing but... you did a far better job than I could have. Bravo.

@noncornbatant: The Alliance wasn't all bad though. Whedon himself has said, they're much more like guys who get it wrong sometimes than actual bad guys. You're only meant to see it from the Firefly crew's perspective, and that's going to have an inevitable bias.

@Supernintendo: Haven't seen the movie, but Bridge to Terebithia (the book) is NOT a fantasy in any way. Its leads are two kids who are into fantasy and make-believe things based on the stories they love, but nothing actually fantastic happens in the story. I find its inclusion... disturbing.

@JennaW: Biting and sarcastic... (plus a little snarky)...

Excellent, just excellent.

That is completely correct themes and motifs.

Hell most myths could be put in there.. King Arthur and Merlin anyone?

@garro:
Yes a warhammer 40k movie would be different, and would also sadly suck... It is nice to imagine a world were it wouldn't but... (hell the fans have problems with the 'dawn of war' games)

Having just watched that 'clever' mashup.. I find that it's point is even more pointless that I gave it credit for...

What is it trying to say movies are the same? Duh. Yes hero fights evil... The inclusion of Beowulf (the movie) does not have the young person quest/discovery aided by elder wizard type motif that the others have...

Hell all this proves is with standard movie promo jump cuts you can edit together any movie with any other movies and look the same.. I could add WWII movies and Shakespeare and still have the same good vs evil theme...

Stupid.

@shudderstep: I love how people point to Tolkein as if he invented elves. Lord Dunsany was working those themes before he was. Oh, and EVERYONE who ever told a fairy tale around the fireplace.

The reason this stuff has similarities is because it all draws from the same *source* influences, not because everyone is copying Tolkein. Sure, some are, but not to the extent people who think Tolkein is fantasy-writer-ZERO think.

Take a folklore class someday if you want to see how intertwined story of all kinds is.

@JennaW: You know how sometimes your have a friend or significant other who you think is really amazing, and you start reflexively giving them credit for things that they didn't really do just because you think they are so awesome? "Oh, Angie was saying that just the other day!" "Mike totally had that idea."

Okay, well, neither have I actually.

But if I had, it would be like that. Even though I knew better, I couldn't help it in the heat of the moment. I'm in love.

@JennaW: I thought people gave him credit for re-inventing elves. I.E. no longer little people who frollick around in the woods, like they do in The Hobbit.

OH MY GOD WHEN IS THIS MOVIE COMING OUT!?!?

@aspiringexpatriate: The Tuatha de Danaan? Ancient godlike faery (the Sidhe) of Ireland? Among many other sources? Nope. He may have dredged up a different source archetype for elves than was in vogue, but he didn't invent it.

Well, good then. Yeah, the faeries of Britain and Ireland always were a bit more venomous than the rest of the worlds. >>Torchwood.

Wow, I totally want to see this movie! But I'm a sucker for swords and light sabers and dragons and whatnot.

@JennaW: What about midichlorians? That could totally happen.

Its called the Hero Archetype. Read Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces.

woah, wait. i see the bridge to terabithia, the wizard of oz, eragon, and beowulf here. why isn't that included in the title?!haha.

Ok, I understand that Star Wars is still pretty popular, and I'm a fan of all six movies, but I only saw three generic Star Wars shots in that whole thing. Luke staring at the suns, Yoda saying one line, and a brief explosion... How again does this have anything to do with whether or not Star Wars is Sci-fi or fantasy? It really seems like it was just thrown in for the name recognition.