REally enjoyed thsi episode. Season 4 is shaping up good. Oh well, back to counting down the days until next friday. :)

I felt a very revealing moment about the show was when Starbuck told Adama that when she was in Earth orbit she felt as though she had never left.

This hints at the direction that the show may take with the finale along with other tidbits of information shown over the last several seasons. It seems to me that taken together, and correlating to our own real experience, Kobol was settled from Earth originally instead of the other way around. It also seems to me that there is a parallel drawn between how the Cylon's are developing and how the humans came to inhabit the colonies.

This leads to the speculation that when and if the Galactica ever reaches Earth it will find a world thousands of years in our future and that, in a suitable twist, we created the colonists much as they created the Cylons.

Nice summary...

One minor point. I don't think the "shaved down" or "suppressed" normally occurs. This is a new concept that they came up with to 'fix' the problem with the raiders not attacking the fleet.

My impression was the raider have a moderate level of intelligence and independent initiative (see Scar), the shaving is a new idea.

I also wonder if the Cents aren't even lower (with their inhibitors in).

Now who knows?
(also love the return of the hybrids "spouting metaphysical dribble" or whatever he calls it)

Well I may be in the minority on this one, but I found the exposition a little ham-fisted. I little to tell and not show. Also not impressed with Helfer, who I usually adore. Guess it's just me though!

@DocGratis: Oh, I like the idea that they developed it to make the Raiders attack when they should. Though there's so little discussion of the backstory in the episode that we don't know for sure how long they've been lobotomizing the Raiders and Centurions. Though we do know for sure that the Raiders have evolved recently, we don't know how recently.

@PVIII: Yeah, explication in almost any show or movie is always a little ham-fisted I think. But in this case, I was able to overlook it because the info was so interesting.

Dis anyone catch the Starbuck nod to the original Starbuck from the season premier?

Its very subtle, but theres a scene where she gets out of her viper and does the same body language and smile as Dirk Benedict used to do on the original series.

It was weird seeing the new Starbuck become the old Starbuck for just a few seconds.

oops did not dis... lol

@Annalee Newitz: Did the Raiders actually evolve, or were they always capable of responding to the presence of the Final Five and this was simply the first time anyone saw what happens when they encounter one? Guess we don't have enough info yet...

Sorry to nitpick but every time I read "Samuel" it really rankled my ass ;) Model #4 is actually named Simon. Or at least that's what he called himself back on the farm on Caprica.

I absolutely loved when 6's head baltar appeared to Baltar. Do you think there will ever be a head baltar vs. head six argument with Baltar acting as referee?

@Annalee Newitz: I took six's disgust at the shaving down to suggest that it is not a established procedure..

To go further (and more into speculation), the Centurions (with their inhibitors) would not have been capable of noting the final five (they have shot at 3 of the 5 on a regular basis)

But this is the first time a Raider had a one on one with one of the final five.

@Monsieur.Mind: I would say that this could be the first time a raider was one on one with a final five. (excluding shooting at the Chief in a Raptor)

@DocGratis: Oops I would have to also exclude the one that Starbuck brought back.. but we could assume that it was effectively lobotomized before Starbuck found it (with a bullet)

@Monsieur.Mind: Not enough info. But maybe when the Raider scanned Anders that activated the "evolve intelligence" programs? That would be interesting.

"I think this is the first time I've heard them talk about the 'original programmers.'"

That's because it's all being pulled out of Moore's ass. There are a number of things in these last few episodes that reek of eleventh-hour retconning, and it's "rankling my ass". I want to know why, in all of his time on Caprica as a resistance fighter, and all of his time on New Caprica, did no Cylon finger Anders as one of their own? Hell, Tigh was a captive of them for a good long time, even getting one of his apparently-important-scan-target eyes removed, and they didn't ID him?

Felgercarb.

I don't think these four were Cylons when this story started. I doubt they were when season 3 started. It's like Nina Myers being a mole at the end of season 1 of 24. Something brought in at the end in a "wouldn't it be wild if..." thing that stuff from before contradicts, but let's just hope no one notices. Raises the question, "Does Moore know who the final Cylon is?"

I betcha it's Boxey.

Small point since he's proven to be almost non-existent as a character, but the #4 model is Simon, not Samuel. Samuel is Sam Anders.

@Marcus:
While I would never suggest that these kind of developments are not pulled out of people's asses all the time...

What if:
The skin jobs don't notice the final five because they were "programed not to look for them".

The raiders have a less evolve intelligence more instinctive, like dogs. And were able to sense them (in close proximity)
They have been referred to ask "like a pet" numerous times.

The Toaster heads? I dunno, that inhibitor? Maybe?

on the question regarding the Cylons just being reborn again, if you remember Diana kept killing herself over and over as she was getting stronger and stronger impressions of 'god' and also that each time a Cylon gets reborn it becomes more difficult or hurts more and more.

and what about Boomer having a relationship with Chief, one of the final five? What was that about? Was it in their programming that they hook up and have a Cylon child together?

and what's going on with Chief and Cally's kid? is that the fabled hybrid instead of Sharon and Helo's?

aargh!

So, what made the raider scan Anders? Were they scanning everybody out there? Even if it were a "Hmm, why aren't you shooting me?" thing, I call felger. With all of those nugget pilots up there, others have hesitated or left their safeties on (which I think was just Anders screwing up and reading too much into it). Did they scan those guys, too, in case they might be Cylons? That's how the raiders think? If a human doesn't immediately start shooting at me and trying to kill me, he/she could be a Cylon? Sounds kind of weak...

I'm not saying there's no way to come up with explanations for this stuff after the fact (I'm a Next Generation fan, so it ain't like I've never seen it before). But an explanation that the raiders are the only ones capable of detecting them because no one has thought to keep them from it (which is essentially why the other models can't, by that explanation) is flimsy at best.

Just occurred to me, but didn't Baltar's detector work? Didn't it finger Sharon, and he kept quiet because he was afraid she'd flip out and kill him (a worry planted by the Six in his head)? Well, he scanned Tigh with that didn't he? I must admit, it's been a while, so I'm fuzzy on this...

@Annalee Newitz: Sorry, but it was very clear the lobotomization was a new development based on the fact that the Raiders wouldn't fight the colonies on command anymore. They suppressors on the Centurions is apparently old-school and may have been part of the human-looking Cylon's development to subvert the Centurions to their will, but since it does no long-term harm (it can be switched on and off, we see), it wasn't the outrage the permanent physical alteration of the ships is.

@JennaW:
edit:
THE suppressors... ARE apparently

@Marcus: Yes. And that is part of the running subtext of this. I'm not sure who all he scanned before the project was ended (it was interrupted at some point), but it's also possible the Final Five don't blip the same way as the other seven do.

Speaking of the alteration of the raiders, there's like a bazillion of those things. You can see them every time they show a decent close-up of a baseship. They're going to do that procedure on all of them? Talk about your crap assignment...

@Marcus: Who knows what kind of "one of us" Field Anders is putting out, but there was a clear sense in that scene that there was *something* happening on both sides before the scan confirmed to the Raider "RUN AWAY!"

@Marcus: ...there are many copies...

@DocGratis: What if: The skin jobs don't notice the final five because they were "programed not to look for them".

It's almost as if that were a running plotline that had been articulated more than once since at least early last season!

;)

Wait, this was a good episode? I remember thinking when it was over that the actual plot developments could have been handled in about 10 minutes, and that the rest was just repetition. And screaming.

@StrangelyBrown: You could just read plot summaries.

@JennaW: I should have! Don't get me wrong, I like the show, and the Cylon plot development was interesting, but aside from that, I didn't feel like there was very much "there" there this week.

@JennaW: But my point is, is he just now detectable? Why? I don't think he was putting out any sort of field, because why would an obvious scan be necessary to ID him? The raider could have done that without all the retinal business (BTW, very steady hand on that scanner, huh? Kudos to the raider.)

And yeah, many copies, but finite garage space.

I got more sucked into the scene between Adama and Roslin than the Cylon meeting. Adama's suggestion that maybe Roslin's afraid her death would be meaningless made me go, "oh, so is *Starbuck* the dying leader?"

Intersting Scully/Mulder believer/non-believer flippage happening there.

Also, I wish Starbuck had screeched at the top of her lungs just a bit less.

Finally, loved the goodbye moment between Lee and Dualla, even though the Starbuck kiss got two thumbs up.

I think the point of them wiping out the Cavils, Samuels, and Number Fives is that they arent going to take it anymore. Class warfare has begun, the rules have changed, accept them as equals or be prepared to pay the consequences..

@StrangelyBrown: I'm with you. Everything happens very slowly in this show. All that Lee is leaving stuff? My God, how many going away parties does this guy need? We've only just now thought to send someone in a jump-capable ship to investigate Starbuck's story? Really? Frustratingly sloooooooow.

i have a love hate relationship with reading these comments. On the one hand, i love the in depth analysis and insight a lot of you provide.
on the other hand, a lot of you at the same time manage to criticize a lot more than discuss.
it always makes me feel odd when i come away from something thinking "wow that was cool." after having been on the edge of my seat the entire time, then lose some of that enthusiasm after the disparaging play by play from some of you.

As far as this show is concerned, I am just along for the ride, and it is a great one.

@StrangelyBrown: I agree with you. But it was still a great episode. Also, i bet the majority of us could sum up the major 'plot developments' in our entire lives in about ten minutes, with (ironically enough) the rest being repetition and screaming.

@Marcus: This was the first time he'd flown in combat, so it wouldn't matter! It would be interesting to rewatch the episode(s) where he was drafted into helping Lee hold that... place on that planet (brain sludgey!) and see if the Centurions acted oddly.

But I think it has to do with his activation, too -- I don't think he or the others were vibing Cylon before "All Along the Watchtower."

@Marcus: Didn't Six tell the President last week that they were programmed not to think/talk about the Final Five?

It may be retcon for why they never detected the presence of them while being so close to them, but still, it was explained.

And what is he, dying? Roslin works for the government and she's on the Galactica all the time!

@Gina Trapani: AHHHHHHHHHHHH i totally did not even think of starbuck being the dying leader. I love you right now.

@JennaW: Again, that the raider had to scan him to finger him as Cylon suggests that they're not active in their Cylon-ness. For all the world, it looked like the raider was able to tell by something in Anders' eye that he was a Cylon. That suggests that it's possible to tell from their eyes, and that, in turn, suggests physical trait, not something that was activated by the Hendrix Subroutine.

Side note: I'll be interested to see who triggered that subroutine AND I still want to know who left that note in the pilot that said there were 12 models of humany Cylons. To my knowledge, that hasn't been answered, has it?

@Marcus: By "active" I mean they're not sending out signals. Not that they're not getting involved in Cylon community theatre or whatever.

@Marcus: Maybe the Raiders have been "alive" long enough to remember what the Final Five look like, and didn't have to scan the eyes or detect a signal. And this is part of the "evolution" that was spoke of.

Sure, the show made it look like it scanned his eye, but that doesn't mean it detected him that way. A Raider can look at a number six or eight and know they are cylons, why couldn't it do the same for the Final Five if it knows what they look like as well?

@smcallah: That's reachin', but I'll concede that you could be right. However, that would presuppose that raiders have never seen any of the final five (one of which we don't know) ever before ever ever. With Anders and Foster, I can buy that, though with Anders' antics on Caprica after the attack, surely he ran up on one. but still. With the chief, less so. With Tigh, considering his service and the previous war, I'd say that's highly unlikely.

I really liked the slower pace of this episode. The last few, including the ones leading up the end of last seaon, have been breathless with action and developments. I felt like I needed a breather to sort things out, define where all the threads are going and then move on.

@Marcus: @JennaW:
The reason that Baltar's cylon detector didn't ID any of the final five is that the final version does not infact work.

After IDing Boomer (and lying to her about it) he decides that life would be simpler if he just changed the machine to give nothing but negative results.

And I'd like to give a big thinks for this getting posted on the weekend. It's nice not having to wait until Monday to hash it all out :)

Oh, and anyone really scratching their heads over half remembered minor details, check out Battlestar Wiki. Depository of all things BSG.