"But on second thought, maybe aliens who weren't neurotic about their own mortality would be total assholes? No fear of death might make them into crazy warriors. Plus, if it's true that even glimpsing or beginning to comprehend our own mortality makes humans psychotic or depressive, it's possible that aliens who had fully comprehended their deaths would just be total psychos? The awareness of death would overshadow everything and make them into maniacs? Plus if they had no taboos around excrement, they might be living in their own filth?"

Soo.. in otherwords.. Al-Qaeda ??

Would you say Klingons meet the criteria for accepting death?

They'd all be dead.

I always thought they'd be somewhat primitive and most likely, dead. They'd either have incredibly spiritual rituals for a person's death, or they wouldn't have enough in place to keep them alive when catastrophe hits.

the concept of death as a taboo has always somewhat perplexed me, even after my near death experience in a severe car accident. i just dont understand that fear. im also not religious so the afterlife is something i dont know whether or not to blieve in.

Our culture, our religions, our big buildings and our fancy toys, are all designed to distract us from catching a glimpse of the fact that we'll all, individually and collectively, turn into poop...All mental illness stems from the failure of our heroic death-defying projects, and the ensuing awareness of our doom.

Huh? What? I'm aware every day that I'm going to be dead, and in fifty years or so no one will remember I existed, and in about 10,000 or 100,000 years there's a good chance no one will remember the human race existed. I mean, are there people who don't think about this every day?

I think there may be a reason that this is the first time we've heard of this guy and his book. Good catch, Charlie, on the evolutionary necessity of a survival instinct. I don't think we associate poo with death. I think we associate it with smell and disease, and so we do our best to get away from others when we defecate. Not fearing death does not necessarily conflict with wanting to survive.

I'll stick to being petrified of death, thank you very much. It works well for me. >_>

"The thought of suicide is a powerful solace: by means of it one gets through many a bad night" Nietzsche

What if they could just discorporate at will... Would that make them the next Jesus?

I grok that.

I think I see Charlie's point. It's not how an individual might be unafraid of Death, but a whole culture. This is a pretty big leap.

Maybe this mindset would be biologically based. A hive society would mourn the death of one of its units like we do when trimming our toenails. Its experience and memories might stretch back Geologic eras, but would they still fear death? The hornets in Asher's Polity do. They scheme and plot to survive, stave off the inevitable. So they really don't count.

A race that has *always* accepted death, not just the result of some scientific discovery or cultural development (a new religion perhaps) would be very alien indeed. Thaks for the brain fuel, Charlie. Remain in excellence.

Here are three novel that I think touch on this subject:
"In the Cube", David Alexander Smith
"Storyteller", Amy Thompson
"Speaker for the Dead", Orson Scott Card

If a culture didn't care about death, I don't think they'd make it to space for us to meet. The drive to have a legacy, to leave tor mark, whether it be an individual or a culture, is what pushes one on. Take away that, and you're just a bag of jelly with no motivation to get up and walk around, so you die.

While Klingons aren't afraid to die a noble death in battle, they obviously embrace life or they wouldn't seek to expand their empire and dominate the weak.

Without the threat of death there is no reason to live at all-Marilyn Manson

There was an episode of DS9 where people wouldnt die. They were in a state of constant war. They say that without a fear of death the rules of war change.

But look at the Cylons. They dont really die, but they still do pretty much everything we do. Granted that may be part of their programming and a problem with the writing of the show but its just as likely that aliens would be exactly the same as us as they would be completely different

They are aliens after all.

@Grey_Area: Cultures are more immortal, at least much longer lived than people. I'm not going for it. Think of China, a continuous culture older than history.

Sorry, that book is in the psycho-babble pile, as far as i am concerned

I imagine the aliens that aren't concerned by death to be really lazy. Saturn brought up the Klingons, and they are kind of similiar to the not so ancient balts/scandinavians in their way of thinking. Dying really wasn't the cultural issue that people worried about, but being remembered was the issue. Big deeds to get into stovokor or valhalla aren't really about getting into stovokor or valhalla, but they are about being remembered in the oral and written traditions. Examples are Beowulf, Achilles, Kang and Worf. Well, that's my two cents. Sorry about grammar and spelling, I am on pain pills from minor surgery.

P.s>

This is how I imagine a culture that doesn't fear death.
[uk]

+ Watch video

Don't we treat excrement as a taboo because it smells like shit? I mean, I try to keep away from any of it but my own and my child, and my cat, and my dog.

If it's anyone else's, ewww gross.

And I'm aware I'm going to die, I accept it, I don't do anything to avoid the thoughts. And I try not to do anything that will result in me dying, which even an alien that has accepted death would probably do.

So maybe I'm not understanding the concepts, or it's not being expressed correctly here.

The only thing about death that a lot of people can't accept may be that there is nothing after you die, you're just dead, you have no consciousness, no knowledge that you are dead. But I think most humans fully accept that they're going to die. I mean, isn't that why people try to be good Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc? So they can die "properly?"

Without a culture-wide fear of death, there would be no premium on immortality or legacy. Perhaps a "whatever" attitude would be pervasive. In that case, all that supposed Zen would kill any bit of curiosity--including scientific pioneering--and they'd all be sitting in the mud somewhere fucking happily and never discovering anything, doing anything.
Um, or not.

Nice choice of pick there Charlie!

Not going for any of that. It may be that academics state that "no person can comprehend their own death," but people in a multi-generational milleau, such as a farming communities, see death and birth every year as part of a natural cycle. Many farmers, for example, have a family graveyard in the back yard, up on the hill. A little hard to deny death in that case.

Asn the excrement/death conflation is equally bogus. Just part of life, food makes manure, manure makes crops, round and round.

However, for aliens with no excrement taboo, see Brian Aldiss' "The Dark Light Years." Covers exactly that ground, with lots of religion and taboo stuff. And alien relationships with death too. It won a bunch of awards i think. Published in 1964

@dead_red_eyes:

I meant to say "pict". That puzzle kicked my ass a bit back in the day.

Oh, man, the Dig! I played the whole game in one night at a friend's house. Good times. I loved how the shovel was used to solve about 50% of all the puzzles.

Anyway, there was also the Peter F. Hamilton trilogy "Night's Dawn" all about death and how different species deal with it.

Yawn. One old scifi trope is the elder species turning inward and gradually fading away. Or "transcending" or something and disappearing.

Isn't fear of death just another way of saying "survival instinct"?

If one does not fear death, then what mechanism does one have for staying alive in dangerous situations?

An alien race without fear of death would go extinct. "Here comes that bus right at me! Oh, well, death is inevitable anyway. Shrug! Why should I --" ** SMOOOSH! **

p.s. -- We don't like poop for the very simple reason that it smells an awful lot like shit. Plus? It attracts tons of sickness-spreading vermin. Nothing to do with death ... what a bizarre and unsupportable theory from left field that is!

@codydog: Yeah, that Aldiss book sort of baffled me... I'd heard people go on and on about how great it was, and it just sort of left me cold. Plus I was told it featured "coprophilia," which I don't really think it does. But I read it like 8 years ago, so the memory is hazy.

@munkles: Maybe you could fear death, but still accept that it's going to happen? And not try to fool yourself that you're going to be the one who beats it?

I think there's a difference here between "don't care about dying" and "resigned to one's inevitable death." If you're talking about a species with absolutely no concept of their personal end, unless maybe they reproduce like rabbits on viagra and replace lost population/workers/etc. as fast as they croak, they yeah, I don't see them making it too far. I'd equate it to congenital insensitivity to pain with anhidrosis (CIPA), a brain abnormality where a person doesn't register pain; at a young age, they tend to physically injure themselves - sometimes badly - because they don't have a built-in alarm system telling them Don't Do That.

But to really geek it up, I'd point at the Vulcans and say that while they're not eager to Bite It, they're also not opposed to going out if the situation warrants it. It's the logical end to any life, and they're good with it. It's not the lack of concern, but the lack of fear... and with that kind of approach, I can see any species going pretty far.

As for whether humanity would fear that kind of philosophy, I think it would depend largely on how they applied it to us.

My cats have no concept of their own mortality, but they cover up and get away from their own excrement b/c it stinks.

what if aliens dont die?

@codydog: I may have meant to type "It's not about an individual who might be unafraid of Death, but a whole culture of people like that".
Yeah, cultures can be extremely long-lived, the Han Chinese have seen other cultures grow, change, and die. As a Chinese-American i feel I might have a little insight on that -- "What, you guys have only been around for a thousand years? You can sit at the kiddie table and stop telling us how to run our totalitarian state!"

You're probably right about this being psychobabble but I here for new ideas in escapist entertainment.

Well, I'm hitting the bar now, have a good weekend, dog. Cheers!

One of the biggest impacts of death on a community is the sense of absence. Joe was here. Now Joe is not here. I would imagine "acceptance" of death on a social level could mean a less concrete perception/definition of absence, maybe a more vivid interpretation of one's own memory - such that the dead people are more viscerally present to them. Possibly even to the extent that a person's memory/imagination of a dead person would be considered to be just as real as conversation with live people. I've heard of cultures who claim this to be the case, but have never really seen it in action. There would have to be at least some understanding of "Joe's not actually here," some socially constructed hierarchy of who most reliably interprets the actions of the dead. Otherwise the whole culture could get caught in endless he-said-she-said conflicts. Then again, look at most religious disputes.

Freud has been pretty effectively discredited for a while now.

A sizable chunk of Christians and most Jews believe that when you're dead, you're dead (ashes to ashes, dust to dust) and that you stay that way until you're resurrected at some undefined point in the future, if at all. There's no immediate afterlife or heaven. Those that subscribe to this seem pretty calm.

In fact, the most calm, kind and generous people I know are older people nearing death who have made their peace with the world. They're not crazy or psychotic -- they're at peace more than anything.

The fact that ridiculous crap like this can win a Pulitzer indicts the whole point of the prize.

I initially misread the tag at the top as "Xenusociology". Now that would be scary.

Keeping death in my face every day is the only thing that makes me value my life, in light of all the other bullshit people kill and die for.

@smcallah: "I mean, isn't that why people try to be good Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc? So they can die 'properly?' "

Or, one hopes, so they can live properly. A nominal difference, but one probably not enough religious folk appreciate.

I think a culture, alien or not, that had accepted death would be really mentally healthy. But a culture, alien or not, that didn't care about death would be pretty messed up.

Death is one of two possibilities:

1. When you die you pass into non-existence. You will not aware of the life you left behind or anything else, so there is no need to fear what you will not be able to experience.

B. There is some sort of "life" after death, so you go on in some conscious form and don't really cease to exist.

Either way, it would seem to take the basic fear element out of dying.

So don't worry about it!

@Zantor:

"To the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure."
                                                                                         - Albus Dumbledore

@Zantor:
B, or should that be 2, would at least seem to open for discussion the possibility of eternal torment by a malevolent deity. Not that I credit it for a moment. Considering your 1 a near-certainty also renders all possible trauma of existence transient. So don't worry, be whatever.

Mayan civilization didn't seem to be afraid of death. Among many things, they believed that when they comitted suicide they went to heaven.

If I try to smash an ant, it starts running faster and hides. If even the smallest creatures are hardwired to fear death, I think the likelihood of encoutering an advanced species unafraid of mortality is kind of unlikely.

I don't remember this Becker guy from my psych/soc classes, but maybe I was asleep. BS can be so boring.
Anyway, don't people like to "create something heroic" (like big buildings, impactful art, positive social change) precisely because they do know that they will die and it's the only way they can live on in people's memories and in the legacy they leave behind? (It's not just the religious who wish to live and die properly. Atheists and agnostics do too.) Or is that some kind of self-deception and I must henceforth doubt everything anyone claims is their motivation because they're probably just trying to avoid admitting to themselves that they're total crap?
Also, just to nitpick the biological aspect of this post/discussion: you turn into poop if you get digested. If you simply decompose you turn into dirt. The poop-people are just a small subset of dead people so who cares what they think anyhow?

The one thing I took away from my umpteenth Psych class is that Freudian psychology, while it contributed to the way we think of the individual and the self, can be some ol' bull----. It actually is more akin to philosophy and boy, do philosophers love Freud. He's like the twin they never knew. Constantly with the quoting, like Psychology hasn't moved on since then. He's of the school of thought "there's something wrong with everybody".

Here's a question; does Freudian symbolism exist because it was there before or because Freud said "if it's shaped like a phallus it must mean he/she had that in their subconscious" and therefore every tall building in a painting/picture/city is a phallic symbol?

I'm not quite sure why wanting to live is a bad thing. Most living organisms are all about self preservation in order to propagate n'est ce pas? Even we humans.

I think the "society" would look really dead. Literally.

Wherein I have some trouble is this notion of the no-death people being great warriors. Sure, in theory, the same way your typical hentai monster is good in bed because of all its nifty bits.

But without the notion that death=bad, war isn't going to make a lot of sense. War ceases to be an effective tool if the fact that shooting you isn't a big thing. War ceases to be even a considered thing.

War is a political tool because it is scary. The physical occupation portions of it can be achieved through any set of other means. War would be totally senseless to a death-free society.

@Charlie Jane Anders: I read it when it was a new puppy, and didn't like it. But i have never forgotten it either.

Aldis was a weird one even for a Brit of that period. (Wyndham, Ballard, Burgess) But "The Long Afternoon of Earth" would make a great movie. And his Generation Ship book, ditto.

And dont you think that shit smells bad because we are supposed to avoid it? Just like we perceive blood as the brightest color so we will be alarmed? Genetic selection, doncherknow.

@twreckx: I got to hate and avoid pyschobabble after "Iron John" by Robert Bly. (is that right?)

He states the men seek wounds because there are jealous of women and want to emulate vaginas, a thesis so lame it still makes my head spin.

You wonder if some kind soul would pump in some reality to these people, perhaps in the form of enemas.

I would imagine that such a society would pattern itself after an insect society, where each individual would have no concept of itself outside of the context of its service to the hive (yeah, yeah, the Borg, blah, blah blah). Even in certain human societies where individuation is suppressed and conformity is the paramount social value (Nazi Germany, Ancient Sparta, Medieval Japan) instances have been observed where the drive to self-preserve is secondary to that individual's sense of service, honor, or duty ( or shame of being exposed as a coward) to the State...

This is interesting, but of course, we know Freud is wrong: our not liking crap stems from us getting conditioned that poop=disgusting (stemming from our recognizing that it can cause illness), and mental illness stems from a whole lot of areas, like the wrong chemicals getting transmitted from cell to cell in the brain, or other things like that. However, I wouldn't say that it is incorrect that fear of death can cause damage to the brain, causing some kind of PTSD.

However, an alien race that fully accepted individual death? And not just because it is seen as honorable (like with the Samurai) or because it will grant passage to a paradise (several large religions)? Man, that would be very....alien. They would probably be complete epicurean narcissists, because staying healthy wouldn't be a concern. Funerals, grieving, all that stuff wouldn't be part of their culture...
@Slatz_Grobnik: you know, I think you're exactly right.

@Sihanouk-s-Poodle: so what exactly about freud has been discredited? and discredited by who?</