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Hi, my name is ggodo, and I am tired of crap. I don't care what genre it is, I just want the crap to go away. Everywhere I turn in the bookstore there's crap. There's crap in the science fiction section, there's crap in the Literature section, and there's crap in between.
On a side note, how does something become literature? Why is Lord of the Rings and The Dresden Files in the Scifi section? Oh, and if fantasy is selling so well, why doesn't it have its own section instead of putting their porn-worthy titles next to Bradbury? How do I make my comments paragraphs look right? How much of this comment is serious?
@ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H.: Also, it's because it's convenient for putting things on the bookshelves. SciFi/Fantasy is always the section of, "Things that take place in made-up places."
What's especially peculiar is what that does to horror. Some bookstores actually have a horror section, but some don't--and so, the books end up split between regular old "Fiction" and "Sci-Fi/Fantasy," depending on how much stuff is made up.
Isn't most 'Urban Fantasy' thinly-disguised romance fiction with the trappings of some fantasy or SF genre spot-welded to the frame?
I made it through one Anita Blake: Vampire Hunter novel, and less than 1/2 of a Kim Harrison novel and felt like a teen-aged boy sneaking a peek at my mother's Harlequin romances, with missile weapons.
@blatanville: try reading the Annotated Anita Blake (http://www.the-isb.com/?cat=91) and you'll feel much better about yourself, because if nothing else, you're not Anita Blake.
No, that's paranormal romance, don't lump everyone in together. I mean, you wouldn't accuse Neil Gaiman of writing thinly-veiled romance fiction would you?
@zerofritz: I have read Laurell K. Hamiliton's Anita Blake series and I feel a little ashamed to admit I have... It was only the first two novels, I swear!
@CmdrHunt: Oh, man, I think I read the first seven novels, AND the first three novels of her faerie sex books. I have an addiction, I'll be the first to admit. I don't know, I just kept thinking that something was bound to happen eventually, that wasn't werewolf vampire sex.
Similar to why I'll never leave a play at intermission. Maybe, you know, maybe something will happen at the end that will redeem the whole thing. Right?
Yeah, Anita Blake is pretty much the definition of PR - all fluff, no substance. The two genres are linked, to be sure - but you can have UF that isn't pointless vampire-lust.
"be familiar with the genre that you want to write in"
I'm not sure that this actually IS good advice. I'd think that something like, "don't think of your work in terms of genres" would actually be MORE helpful.
Encouraging young authors to sit down and say, "Okay, military science fiction, what is military science fiction like? David Weber, he writes military science fiction, let me read a lot of David Weber. Good, I'm going to write me some military science fiction," is a fancy way of saying, "Let's get ourselves a whole bunch of David Weber clones!"
@braak: B-b-but if you can't pigeonhole a book into an easy preconceived category, Marketing flacks would have to actually work to sell a book. Creativity might be involved, no one wants to see that.
Nah, it's not really the industry's fault, they're just following the path of least resistance or sumthin' similar. I blame a lazy readership even more.
@braak: That assume your young author has never read any more military SF than David Weber. Given that the genre at its most broad could include everything from Heinlein to Niven, or Drake to Cook. There's a huge range of styles and approaches there. Almost any author that stands a chance of getting published will hopefully be a little better writer than the hack you describe.
@braak: Slushpiles, and the existence thereof. There may be a great deal of poor material on store shelves, but there is far, far more, and worse, sitting in the garbage bins of editors everywhere.
@icelight: The ratio of published authors to slushpile authors is definitely a good way of measuring the odds of an individual getting published--but it's the hack-to-good-writer ratio that suggests, to me, that a good author is not in an especially better position than a competent hack when it comes to publishing.
And, while I agree with you in principle--let me be clear, I don't think that I want a spate of ignorant authors--military sci-fi at its most broad includes a LOT of things--regular military fiction and Von Clauswitz, The Iliad, &c. So, at that point you're saying that new authors should be familiar with "books" or "writing," and yes, obviously they should be familiar with that.
The problem that I have is not principally, but practically; and in particular with how the advice is phrased. Good authors are familiar with everything, whether or not they intend to write about it. Saying that you should be "familiar with the genre that you want to write in" suggests that you've chosen the genre first, and the writing second, which I think is a bad kind of advice to give to a new author.
@TemporalSword: uh, 'Double Bingo!' I once worked with a woman in a bookstore who's only criteria for reading a book was, 'Is it Science Fiction?" If so, then she'd read it. Acknowledged classic, or another published-seasonally-on-going-series, she'd read 'em all, as long as they were in the SF section...
Fantasy has always outsold SF in the States but now the divide has gotten greater. Contemporay urban fantasy has gotten so lazy, there's barely any world-building or any real attempt to see how the various ghoulies, ghosties and stiletto-heeled beasties would affect a "real" world. All they need is a half ass crime plot, toss in a vampire or whatev, season liberally with cheezy sex scenes, and slap on a cover with a heavily 'shopped image of a slinky model holding a weapon...Next!
Most Military SF doesn't thrill me much more (replace crossbow with a zap gun on the cover and make the boobs bigger=Baen Books) but it does require more thought from both the writer and reader. I hope Ace/Roc can help turn the trend around but I ain't holding my breath.
What about the UF books that do have extensive world-building? Do those still come under UF for you, or do you class those as just regular contemporary fantasy, as UF seems to be beyond saving?
Because...not all UF is just sleazy sex with vampires and a half-assed plot. >_>
I actually just did a rant about this: tinyurl.com/ufrant
@Stormhawk: Okay, it's a fair cop. I forgot "Urban Fantasy =/= Paranormal Romance". I hang my pointy head in shame.
I prefer my Mystical Metropolises to be of a more otherworldly variety. Micahel Swanwick and Jay Lake really turn my gears lately. If it's going to be set in a world almost just like ours I want to see some very original ideas. Biker elves vs. werewolf cops just ain't enough. The City & The City was great and I really enjoyed Pandemonium by Daryl Gregory. Urban Fantasy should be a lot more than putting your old D&D characters in a Starbuck's chatting on a cell phone.
Actually, she writes: "These days, we have a deluge of Urban Fantasy. As to what we don’t see enough of—I guess I’d say military sf. It works well for us in mass market."
That's not exactly a ringing endorsement or an announcement of a coming sea change in genres, just that $@&ing vampires are getting old and you can always sell Dale Brown at the airport.
I like Dale Brown, but military sci fi doesn't strike me as the next best thing.
@Charlie Jane Anders: Yeah, but she didn't say that. She said "I guess I'd say ..." which is weak tea, then "it works well for us in a mass market."
Nothing against military sci fi. I tend to write a lot of veteran characters and cringe at authors who show they don't know anything about military, well, anything. But she's not saying it's the coming thing, only that the ratio between mass market and mass submissions is off.
Yeah I think Dale Brown is a hack. ;) See, different strokes.
As mentioned, Military SciFi is a rather broad concept. But what I do like about it is that it tends to be smart and educated. Mil SciFi readers crucify authors who are lazy or sloppy with their logic. Much of fantasy always struck me as one deus ex machina after another, and urban fantasy is just the worst of the lot.
@BullLifter: No, no, no. If they wanted more Tom Clancy, it would have said "military action, with one-dimensional characters, banal dialogue and unbelievable/undeveloped relationships."
@TemporalSword: add "utterly implausible scenarios," and you've got Orson Scott Card's "Empire," (2006).
+++
"You look pissed off," said Malich.
"Yeah," said Cole. "The terrorists are crazy and scary, but what really pisses me off is knowing that this will make a whole bunch of European intellectuals very happy."
"They won’t be so happy when they see where it leads. They’ve already forgotten Sarajevo and the killing fields of Flanders."
"I bet they’re already ‘advising’ Americans that this is where our military ‘aggression’ inevitably leads, so we should take this as a sign that we need to change our policies and retreat from the world."
"And maybe we will," said Malich. "A lot of Americans would love to slam the doors shut and let the rest of the world go hang."
"And if we did," said Cole, "who would save Europe then? How long before they find out that negotiations only work if the other guy is scared of the consequences of not negotiating? Everybody hates America till they need us to liberate them."
"You’re forgetting that nobody cares what Europeans think except a handful of American intellectuals who are every bit as anti-American as the French," said Malich."
+++
Next time you have writer's block, read that and remember that SOMEONE GOT PAID TO WRITE THAT CRAP. You cannot do worse.
07/13/09
On a side note, how does something become literature? Why is Lord of the Rings and The Dresden Files in the Scifi section? Oh, and if fantasy is selling so well, why doesn't it have its own section instead of putting their porn-worthy titles next to Bradbury? How do I make my comments paragraphs look right? How much of this comment is serious?
07/13/09
07/13/09
07/13/09
What's especially peculiar is what that does to horror. Some bookstores actually have a horror section, but some don't--and so, the books end up split between regular old "Fiction" and "Sci-Fi/Fantasy," depending on how much stuff is made up.
07/13/09
I made it through one Anita Blake: Vampire Hunter novel, and less than 1/2 of a Kim Harrison novel and felt like a teen-aged boy sneaking a peek at my mother's Harlequin romances, with missile weapons.
07/13/09
07/13/09
07/13/09
No, that's paranormal romance, don't lump everyone in together. I mean, you wouldn't accuse Neil Gaiman of writing thinly-veiled romance fiction would you?
07/13/09
07/13/09
07/13/09
Similar to why I'll never leave a play at intermission. Maybe, you know, maybe something will happen at the end that will redeem the whole thing. Right?
07/13/09
07/14/09
Yeah, Anita Blake is pretty much the definition of PR - all fluff, no substance. The two genres are linked, to be sure - but you can have UF that isn't pointless vampire-lust.
07/15/09
BTW, I thought "PR" meant "Panty Removal." Works both ways, I guess. :)
07/13/09
I'm not sure that this actually IS good advice. I'd think that something like, "don't think of your work in terms of genres" would actually be MORE helpful.
Encouraging young authors to sit down and say, "Okay, military science fiction, what is military science fiction like? David Weber, he writes military science fiction, let me read a lot of David Weber. Good, I'm going to write me some military science fiction," is a fancy way of saying, "Let's get ourselves a whole bunch of David Weber clones!"
07/13/09
Nah, it's not really the industry's fault, they're just following the path of least resistance or sumthin' similar. I blame a lazy readership even more.
07/13/09
I blame a lazy readership even more.
Bingo.
07/13/09
07/13/09
07/13/09
07/13/09
And, while I agree with you in principle--let me be clear, I don't think that I want a spate of ignorant authors--military sci-fi at its most broad includes a LOT of things--regular military fiction and Von Clauswitz, The Iliad, &c. So, at that point you're saying that new authors should be familiar with "books" or "writing," and yes, obviously they should be familiar with that.
The problem that I have is not principally, but practically; and in particular with how the advice is phrased. Good authors are familiar with everything, whether or not they intend to write about it. Saying that you should be "familiar with the genre that you want to write in" suggests that you've chosen the genre first, and the writing second, which I think is a bad kind of advice to give to a new author.
07/13/09
07/13/09
Most Military SF doesn't thrill me much more (replace crossbow with a zap gun on the cover and make the boobs bigger=Baen Books) but it does require more thought from both the writer and reader. I hope Ace/Roc can help turn the trend around but I ain't holding my breath.
Oh, and please stop writing zombie books, thanks.
07/14/09
What about the UF books that do have extensive world-building? Do those still come under UF for you, or do you class those as just regular contemporary fantasy, as UF seems to be beyond saving?
Because...not all UF is just sleazy sex with vampires and a half-assed plot. >_>
I actually just did a rant about this: tinyurl.com/ufrant
07/14/09
I prefer my Mystical Metropolises to be of a more otherworldly variety. Micahel Swanwick and Jay Lake really turn my gears lately. If it's going to be set in a world almost just like ours I want to see some very original ideas. Biker elves vs. werewolf cops just ain't enough. The City & The City was great and I really enjoyed Pandemonium by Daryl Gregory. Urban Fantasy should be a lot more than putting your old D&D characters in a Starbuck's chatting on a cell phone.
07/13/09
That's not exactly a ringing endorsement or an announcement of a coming sea change in genres, just that $@&ing vampires are getting old and you can always sell Dale Brown at the airport.
I like Dale Brown, but military sci fi doesn't strike me as the next best thing.
07/13/09
07/13/09
Nothing against military sci fi. I tend to write a lot of veteran characters and cringe at authors who show they don't know anything about military, well, anything. But she's not saying it's the coming thing, only that the ratio between mass market and mass submissions is off.
07/13/09
Yeah I think Dale Brown is a hack. ;) See, different strokes.
As mentioned, Military SciFi is a rather broad concept. But what I do like about it is that it tends to be smart and educated. Mil SciFi readers crucify authors who are lazy or sloppy with their logic. Much of fantasy always struck me as one deus ex machina after another, and urban fantasy is just the worst of the lot.
07/13/09
07/13/09
07/13/09
+++
"You look pissed off," said Malich.
"Yeah," said Cole. "The terrorists are crazy and scary, but what really pisses me off is knowing that this will make a whole bunch of European intellectuals very happy."
"They won’t be so happy when they see where it leads. They’ve already forgotten Sarajevo and the killing fields of Flanders."
"I bet they’re already ‘advising’ Americans that this is where our military ‘aggression’ inevitably leads, so we should take this as a sign that we need to change our policies and retreat from the world."
"And maybe we will," said Malich. "A lot of Americans would love to slam the doors shut and let the rest of the world go hang."
"And if we did," said Cole, "who would save Europe then? How long before they find out that negotiations only work if the other guy is scared of the consequences of not negotiating? Everybody hates America till they need us to liberate them."
"You’re forgetting that nobody cares what Europeans think except a handful of American intellectuals who are every bit as anti-American as the French," said Malich."
+++
Next time you have writer's block, read that and remember that SOMEONE GOT PAID TO WRITE THAT CRAP. You cannot do worse.
07/13/09
07/13/09
I also should say that they are really looking for the next William Shatner. MoreTekWar for everyone!
07/13/09
07/13/09
04/13/09
04/13/09
It's 90% video games, 8% dave matthews and 2% coldplay. Video games are 100% main stream already.