I mean there should be a law, or something.

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The campy Andru-Esposito-Kanigher stories from the sixties were kind of cool in a kitschy way, but THAT was 40 years ago.

Since then, MEH.

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Most of these dude centric romantic comedies aren't really for women, they're just trying to bring together women who like rom coms with guys who like being douche bags in one theater.

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Counting the days until the inevitably beyond awful adaptation of WW turns up, if ever...

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Post No Bills.

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The majority of women in American society, have been masochists with no or little self-esteem for years; American society is setup to do just that. So to claim that appealing to them is a new gimmick makes little sense to me. You are apparently not avoiding the same reality TV crap that I do on a daily basis.

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So says...you? And reality television is your evidence?

You sound like you need a nap. Or maybe a coma.

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Anyway, can you say that Sarah Connor was 'written out of the mythology) if you prefer the 'Sarah Connor Chronicles' path of the Terminator mythology?

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/fixed

They've done several female movies. They've flopped, because they sucked and because those characters were dumb and uninteresting. They don't write many comics for women because the market isn't there. If you want good ones for women

"Equality my ass."
Where does it say ANYWHERE that someone has to value "equality" in the stories they write and the movies they make? Equal opportunity is out there. Equal success is not.

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*If you want good ones for women* then by all means write them yourself. No one is stopping you.

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Thanks though, for explaining what happened to Ripley. I was completely unaware, despite the fact that I've seen the films. No, really, thanks.

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''They've done several female movies. They've flopped, because they sucked and because those characters were dumb and uninteresting.''

You're obviously a little mentally challenged as you've just given the primary reason why these movies don't do well.

There's absolutely no time or money spent in developing any other area of the market, which is actually detrimental to the market, because in the long run, market saturation leads to a downgraded product and audience interest falls off.

Wise business heads always expand their horizons, which leads me to extrapolate that there's something else going on here.

''Where does it say ANYWHERE that someone has to value "equality" in the stories they write and the movies they make?''

Check yourself honey, you're privilege is showing. Seriously, what age are you, 12? Odds are, probably.

''They'' don't write comics for women because ''they'' are usually men and it's not in their self-interest.

/fixed

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Are you feeling alright? I can recommend an excellent remedial reading comprehension class, if it would help?

I write for a living Darling, something you can't even do for yourself.

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If you worked in television, or really, had any clue as to how these shows are produced, or the actual principle of how television is produced in the first place, you'd make a far more informed, less freshman-like comment.

''Reality TV is a symptom of the larger problem''.

Indeed, that must be why there are so many Bret Michaels clones milling about!

Get out of the basement, even for an hour. You'd be amazed.

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Dana Scully was the benchmark and it's all been downhill since then.

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What's very interesting is how narrow your viewpoint is. Or maybe you are just the authority on all that is women, television, comic books, what else???

I know reality tv is made because it's cheap and garners large ratings from the masses. I'm not one of the masses hence I don't watch those shows. But then again, that's just my opinion. I don't work in TV and don't care to either.

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I tip my hat and clink my glass to you, ;)

And you're right, it's like walking against a constant wind of stupidity.

Alcohol, sometimes that's all there is.

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Are you saying that my ''viewpoint'' is narrower than yours?I'm not sure that's actually possible.

And that in the face of your clearly superior '' authority on all that is women, television, comic books, what else??? '' mine pales?

That's the interesting part. Then again, you're evidently exceptional because you're not ''one of the masses'' and don't watch reality television.

Honestly, it's a wonder we don't all turn to stone in the face of your profound wisdom concerning the '' majority '' of women and how reality television REFLECTS TODAYS SOCIETY.

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Oh like some of the most successful Sci-Fi movies of all time The Matrix and Star Wars: A New Hope, both of which were made on a shoestring budget and barely marketed anywhere? Right. I forgot. Great movies require insane budgets which is what the 3 Star Wars prequel were so good. Except for the fact that they were horrific despite have the budget of several small country's GNP's. Let's also not forget movies like The Godfather, Goodfellas or Boondock Saints which again didn't require a huge budget to make them amazing.

"Check yourself honey, you're privilege is showing. Seriously, what age are you, 12? Odds are, probably.''They'' don't write comics for women because ''they'' are usually men and it's not in their self-interest."

Maybe men don't often write for women because they don't understand them. Hell, I haven't met a woman who understands women so how do you expect men to? Also, what do you want? A frickin law? Yeah. That'll solve it.

Conrats! You found a misuse of the word "Your." You may write to live, but you live to whine. Quit complaining and do what you want someone else to do.

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''Conrats!''.

This, literally, says it all.

Quit talking about what you clearly do not understand and get a fucking education. Then you might stop equating the Boondock Saints with filmic excellence and writing gems like these:

'' Great movies require insane budgets which is what the 3 Star Wars prequel were so good. Except for the fact that they were horrific despite have the budget of several small country's GNP.''

You may talk out of your arsehole but your complete and utter delusion as to how ''right '' you are is truly impressive.

As you were.

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And Sarah Connor? Star of T:2, Star of The Sarah Connor Chronicles? I don't know exactly what your whole mess is, but taking incredibly strong, positive female roles and then telling the world that in fact they're NOT positive just strikes me as the absolute height of trolling.

I end up provoking arguments because I'm passionate about certain things. But I keep mine short and on topic. You just wander from board to board not just debating, but purposefully dragging debates into long, loathesome slug-fests dripping with invective. And then you complain that all your adversaries are rotten with "privilege" (which is just an excuse so that you can treat everyone like shit and ignore their responses), and you fawn all over anyone who agrees with you?

The sad part is that you're not fundamentally wrong. You're just so unisex-hysterical about it that you become a troll.

2 replies is a heated and positive debate. 22 replies is a syndrome.

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Did I say that either of these two, as you yourself say, ''incredibly strong, positive female roles '' were not positive? Can you point out exactly where I said that? With explicit reference please?

I said they were both written out of the mythos .

Is this not true?

And it's you , who are the troll here. You actually do wander from board to board, jumping in at the end of discussions with 2-bit unsolicited advice, proclaiming yourself the voice of authority on a ''discussions'' you were never involved in. Classy!

Calling Jodark an '' adversary '' is like saying Michael Jackson is all there.

You get a kick out of it, that much is clear but there's nothing '' short ''or '' on topic ''about your comment, so go troll somewhere else.K?

Wilful misunderstanding is one thing, hopeless confusion is another. Sort yourself out , then you might have a leg to stand on.

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There are millions of female comics fans, equally enthused by movie adaptations who ''stand in line for 48 hrs.''Longer in some cases, I know! I was one of them!

You admit yourself that not all of those are queuing are women but you're generalizing an entire gender by saying that men are ''more easily amused''. Way ta' go Vance.

I'm not denying, in any way, that 16-15yr old males are where the money is in the minds of Hollywood producers. That's my entire argument. I'm saying Wonder Woman won't be done justice because of the insularity of the production culture- they'll never think outside the box.

It'll be very interesting to see what happens with an Alien reboot, if there is one and if they decide to write a female protagonist again, as Carl Rinsch has inferred.

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I got my tickets to Phantom Menace weeks in advance, and my friends had to talk me down after I watched that piece of crap they called a Star Wars movie. I read Watchmen before I went to see it in theaters the weekend it came out.

The only way that comic books become popular for the female 18-34 group is if they actually write and market compelling stories for that group, and teach girls that it's okay to enjoy a medium that has primarily been for adolescent males. Just because the medium works one way now doesn't make it a "good" reason to keep doing what it's been doing.

Remember, this is a science fiction site. The girls on this site probably like the same "unisexual pyrotechnic extravanganzas" that you do.

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Just because all your friends are cut from the exact same cloth as you, doesn't mean that they represent an entire demographic, it just means you're narcissistic you only want to be friends with yourself.

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True. But who makes the vast market of those standing in line for 48 hours?

Of course there are women who freak out just as much as the men when Stan Lee makes a cameo in the latest Marvel flick. (I am one of them.) However, we do not make the majority of the market and unfortunately, in Hollywood majority rules because that is where the money is.

I would love to see a Wonder Woman flick that would both appeal to both men and women. Something that dealt with Wonder Woman as a person. And she has a wonderful origin story that is often ignored to make room for the obvious, "chick in itty bitty costume kicking ass" garbage that most people write.

Wonder Woman is Diana, a being that was made of clay, infused with a murdered unborn child's soul and given life to by the ancient Olympians. She grew up in a single gender, monoethnic, polytheistic society that was isolated from the rest of the planet. While the rest of the world developed science, her people stayed with magic.

And suddenly she finds herself in the outside world, with their multiple cultures, multiple religions and technology that is almost like magic.

Why can't we have stories dealing with this aspect? Of how she views the world and how the world views her. I mean, she was made by the gods, you would think that would ruffle some religious people's feathers. Especially, when they realize that the Olympians, beings they thought were myths, are real. So, if the Olympians exist what other gods exist? And unlike Superman, who was raised in America and has family roots there, what keeps her tied to that country? Why doesn't she fight for other countries?

There are so many stories to tell. Human stories. However, most writers who tackle comics complain that they have no idea how to write for a woman but Wonder Woman isn't just any woman. They should be having a field day with her. I don't see why they can't.

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There aren't many actors , male or female-period- in Hollywood, who have the looks, the brains and the chops to do any iconic part justice.

It's people like you who don't give enough of a shit and are happy to shrug and say, '' yeah, well, who cares, doesn't affect me!happy days!'' who affect the other, neglected 50% of the audience.

Nice going.

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That's...exactly my argument. I'm not sure what you're taking issue with in what I said?

Basically, the standard counter argument to someone asking why no studios will make movies with strong female protagonists in the action or comicbook genre is that it's not economically viable.

Parsed, this actually means that it won't make Dark Knight money because the female comic book readership is a smaller demographic but that doesn't mean it's miniscule! Building an audience takes time as well as money.

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''Just because all your friends are cut from the exact same cloth as you, doesn't mean that they represent an entire demographic, it just means you're narcissistic you only want to be friends with yourself. ''

Truly, the best example of the ''pot calling the kettle black'' I've seen in recent times.

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That's what I wrote in a nutshell. Understand?

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You're arguing that writers shouldn't write another strong female role like Ripley because it would ''sully '' Weaver's work.If every writer lived by your logic, none of them would ever write female action roles ever again.

Oh wait... they don't.

Why would I agree with what you said? Really, I'm all ears.

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What are you talking about? The fact that you feel the need to explain yourself again by definition means that you din't make yourself clear.

You said:

'Why can't we have stories dealing with this aspect? ''

But you know the answer, you've explained it to me, I've explained it back to you and now you're saying that ''inspiration'' and ''money'' don't overlap?

Of course they overlap. There is no debate here.

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Now I do find this interesting. Someone made the point earlier about how in social relationships between men and women it's always the guy taking charge and being the first to ask a girl out, or paying for the date (most...not all the time, even less the older you get of course), and of course the guy always ask the girl to marry him. Maybe there is much more social maturation between the sexes we need to see before we start seeing the kind of ground breaking female action hero you want in Summer Blockbusters. I mean, sure there are exceptions like the Aliens movies where the lead is a strong female character in a portrayal that is way ahead of its time, but YOU want to see a consistent effort to make action movies with witty and strong female leads. Maybe it is society that needs to evolve first before you call on movies to evolve.

So next time you see a cute guy, you go up to him, buy him a drink, and ask him out.

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'' I made the point that, in Hollywood, female characters in action movies can be beautiful and can be smart but never both at the same time. ''

Seriously, go apply for a job at any major movie studio. You've got the party line down anyway. Jesus Christ.

'' Maybe it is society that needs to evolve first before you call on movies to evolve. ''

I'm sorry, are we talking alternate realities now?

Last time I checked, movies didn't exist in a vacuum. If you knew anything about film, anything at all in fact, or anything about the subtext of many comic book narratives you'd understand that they reflect , usually iterate and often challenge the status quo.

You have now fleshed out your stance quite clearly at this stage saying that

A) Ripley was where strong female protagonists began and ended. There should be no more. That's all we get because basically writers don't like writing for women and they'll fuck it up anyway. So...fuhgeddabouit. Amirite?

B)Society hasn't ''evolved'' yet to the point where women can ask men to marry them without it seeming out of the ordinary, so we can't create imaginary scenarios where this is possible.

This is obviously news to YOU, but (and you might want to sit down for this)in ''social relationships'' not every guy ''takes charge''! What the hell does ''take charge '' mean anyway? Can you define that for me please?

I don't know any guy that would be expected to pay for dinner anymore on a date. I don't know any women that ''expect'' a guy to ask them out first.

Maybe it's best you stay in 1954 in your time capsule honey, because I think life is gonna be really hard for you.

The day I take advice from someone who thinks that I and I ALONE (I used capitals, I thought you'd like that) want to see strong female characters on film, and that that's a REALLY DIFFICULT CONCEPT, is the day I consider asking a man whom I find sexually attractive would he like an alcoholic beverage, and think to myself ''Holy Fuck! What an innovative and radical thing I just did there!''

Get back under your rock.

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Now you are just arguing for arguing sake. You don't want to have an intelligent discussion. You just want bash.

Good day, ma'am.

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You're trying to make some point about the fact that Wonder Woman is a fascinating character, that she's a font of inspiration (or should be) that writers should be having a field day, etc. I agree with all this. I never said I didn't.

The facts of the matter remain that they aren't. That they aren't fascinated by her, in the way that they seem to be with the mythos of Batman or Spiderman or The Green Hornet, for Christ's sake.

Still with me? I agree with you. What I don't agree with is feigning disbelief at why writers don't want to commit characters such as WW to film. We know why.

If you want a discussion, fine. That's great-discuss!

Reiterating facts is not a discussion. It's just lazy.

What do you think can be done in order to foster interest in WW's adaptation?

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I'm generalizing of course. If you look you will see an occasional multi dimensional character. Usually on a Josh Whedon product, or maybe something from France. But they don't count since they're depressing as shit.

The fact is, we like stereotypes. They're easy to relate to and easy to understand. And easier to market.

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The fact is, you're speaking for yourself. Not all of us ''like stereotypes''. And as far as I know, The Wire wasn't produced in France.

'' Or a white guy that wasn't a womanizing, beer drinking, frat boy who you like anyway because he has a heart of gold? ''

Yes, because media representation has been so unkind, so unvaried , so utterly lacking in diversity when it comes to the white male.

I mean, you don't even sound like you live on the same planet as the rest of. I'm sorry, but it's true.

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There's nothing '' obvious '' about most people's intentions.

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I would argue that the Linda Carter show was just as harmful to Wonder Woman as a property as Adam West and Christopher Reeve were to Batman and Superman respectively. Of the three, only Batman has succeeded in overcoming his past mishandling, and Schumacher damn near derailed that train with the Batnipples and Meestah Freeze. Now, the reason I say this is that the first thing most people think of when you mention Wonder Woman is watching Carter's series. And the second thing they think of is how meh that show was, even at the time. Until there is a WW property that challenges Linda Carter as the version your average non-fan thinks of when you mention the name, she will never be able to get the respect that other superheroes (male or female) get. However, JL/U and New Frontier clearly show that there's a lot more to the character than anything that's been done in any live-action project.

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But when it comes to either Wonder Woman or Lucy Lawless, all a man has is his dreams anyway.

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She's a female that isn't fucked-up and/or one-dimensional

That's laughable. She's a comic book character who exists at the whims of whoever writes her, in a medium that is absolutely one-dimensional. How can you actually venture the idea that somehow she's not popular because she's "Too deep".

Wonder Woman's dated. Her look is dated, her gear is dated. The only thing you can do with her character is the whole "cheesecake sexpot/noble warrior princess" dichotomy which has been played out for FORTY YEARS. It's like Superman. Every time you read another "am I human/am I kryptonian" storyline doesn't your anus just reflexively clench up?

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Well said.

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But you'd probably pass out before they even got to "Pull up, Porkins!"

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