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San Francisco, 4:13 AM
Tue Dec 15
25 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of Kishi Kishi
    10/29/09

    In reply to Airship Greets a Time-Traveling Mayflower in New York Harbor
    Importantly, this picture matches with Kenneth Hite's Rule: "Alternative Universes tend to have more Zeppelins." #airship
     Reply
    Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H. promoted this comment Kishi was starred Kishi was unstarred
    Image of reddingofish reddingofish
    10/29/09

    In reply to Airship Greets a Time-Traveling Mayflower in New York Harbor
    I would like to read a book about what it would have been like if the Europeans had made it to North America and the natives already had guns and tech at about the 19th century level. I don't think it would have been so easy. More like what happend in China. #airship
     Reply
    reddingofish was starred reddingofish was unstarred
    Image of PSac PSac
    10/29/09

    @reddingofish: That's more realistic than the picture. If North America was that technologically advanced, wouldn't it make sense that settlers would've gone to (and maybe conquered) Europe? #airship
     Reply
    PSac was starred PSac was unstarred
    Image of Althestane Althestane
    10/29/09

    @PSac: Well, you'd have to take into account how an advanced Native American culture would operate. I'm not labeling them all as peace-loving peoples (goodness knows many were the opposite) but I don't imagine that trans-oceanic conquest and colonization would have been in the cards. #airship
     Reply
    Sunshineyness promoted this comment Althestane was starred Althestane was unstarred
    Image of Sunshineyness Sunshineyness
    10/29/09

    @Althestane: At the end of the day the Native North American people didn't have the concept of land ownership so how could they go anywhere and "conquer"? #airship
     Reply
    Sunshineyness was starred Sunshineyness was unstarred
    Image of The_Sporean_Bob The_Sporean_Bob
    10/29/09

    @Sunshineyness: but is that necessarily what they would believe were they so advanced? And though they may not believe in owning land, that doesn't mean anything about not owning people, or using them, or taking their goods. #airship
     Reply
    Sunshineyness promoted this comment The_Sporean_Bob was starred The_Sporean_Bob was unstarred
    Image of Sunshineyness Sunshineyness
    10/29/09

    @The_Sporean_Bob: I guess that's true. I was thinking conquering in the very western sense I think (claiming that land is physically yours). That doesn't exclude taking people, food, supples, etc. But would they have stayed? Governed? It's very difficult to say because the core concepts of their culture were so different than the Europeans even when comparing them at the time of equal technologies. #airship
     Reply
    Sunshineyness was starred Sunshineyness was unstarred
    Image of 1Grand_Marquis 1Grand_Marquis
    10/29/09

    @Sunshineyness: That's only because they weren't at a stage where economics had risen to the forefront of their philosophical views. The idea of ownership can only be derived from that. They were getting close though, when settlers first arrived. The concept of alliance was being utilized - which requires a tangible distinction of tribes in order to work - and the concept of sovereignty was in its early stages as well. #airship
     Reply
    Sunshineyness promoted this comment 1Grand_Marquis was starred 1Grand_Marquis was unstarred
    Image of Sunshineyness Sunshineyness
    10/29/09

    @1Grand_Marquis: I guess than the better question would have been what if the colonists arrived about 100 years later? Would they tribes have had alliances formed that would have enabled them to avoid being defeated by the Europeans?

    (Also, upon some quick searches I'm finding interesting articles on how the issue of Native Americans and land ownership is an historically sticky one...) #airship
     Reply
    Sunshineyness was starred Sunshineyness was unstarred
    Image of Trystero Trystero
    10/29/09

    @Sunshineyness: That assumes that cultural devolopment follows some positivistic path. It's not like they were a few turns away from researching "Nationalism" in Civilization IV. And as you've seen from your google searches, simply stating that "Native Americans" didn't have notions of land ownership oversimplifies things a great deal.

    Now I'm about to be a bad commenter by not looking up what I'm about to say: Regardless of whether or not "Native Americans" (I keep using quotes because European settlers encountered several different tribes) had notions of land ownership, they were organized enough to push a pitiful band of settlers into the sea. #airship
     Reply
    Trystero was starred Trystero was unstarred
    Image of The_Sporean_Bob The_Sporean_Bob
    10/30/09

    @Sunshineyness: Possibly. It really depends on which tribe went over there, I guess. The Inca, for example, most often used hegemonic methods to slowly absorb other tribes into their own, so they probably would have stayed and indoctrinated the Europeans in their ways, made them speak their languages, and build some roads. Who knows, really? #airship
     Reply
    The_Sporean_Bob was starred The_Sporean_Bob was unstarred
    Image of Vulcan Has No Moon Vulcan Has No Moon
    10/31/09

    @PSac: Who the heck would want Europe during that era? Other than a few bright spots of civility amongst the upper classes (Renaissance art, science, literature) most of Europe was a cold, over-crowded, plague-ridden hell hole. The Advanced First Nations may have sent a few scouts to Europe to see what the place is like, they surely would have returned home disappointed and carrying quite a few parasites. I don't see the flu and small pox wiping out hoards of the Advanced First Nations folks since they obviously would have invented anti-virals, antibiotics, and vaccines by then, but still the germ-ridden unwashed Europeans probably wouldn't have been on any interest to them. #airship
     Reply
    Vulcan Has No Moon was starred Vulcan Has No Moon was unstarred
    Image of MonkeyT MonkeyT
    10/29/09

    In reply to Airship Greets a Time-Traveling Mayflower in New York Harbor
    Smallpox, the sequel. #airship
     Reply
    MonkeyT was starred MonkeyT was unstarred
    Image of Fedaykin Fedaykin
    10/29/09

    In reply to Airship Greets a Time-Traveling Mayflower in New York Harbor
    Instead of turkey and corn, the natives introduced them to bagels. #airship
     Reply
    TemporalSword promoted this comment Fedaykin was starred Fedaykin was unstarred
    Image of TemporalSword TemporalSword
    10/29/09

    @Fedaykin: Bagels and mochiattos. #airship
     Reply
    TemporalSword was starred TemporalSword was unstarred
    Image of lazyeight lazyeight
    10/29/09

    In reply to Airship Greets a Time-Traveling Mayflower in New York Harbor
    Did you happen to notice the flags on the ship?
    This isn't the MF II, it's the HMS/USS Liet-Kynes (serves two masters). #airship
     Reply
    AmishJohn promoted this comment lazyeight was starred lazyeight was unstarred
    Image of AmishJohn AmishJohn
    10/29/09

    @lazyeight: So, it has a hold full of Sappho juice? #airship
     Reply
    AmishJohn was starred AmishJohn was unstarred
    Image of lazyeight lazyeight
    10/29/09

    @AmishJohn: I'm thinkin' whale fur. #airship
     Reply
    lazyeight was starred lazyeight was unstarred
    Image of Rumtum Rumtum
    10/29/09

    In reply to Airship Greets a Time-Traveling Mayflower in New York Harbor
    The Pilgrims did not actually land in NYC, they landed at Plymouth, MA, where they were warmly received by their eventual victims and taught how to feed themselves and hunt and bathe ... okay, I lied about that last part; Pilgrims didn't bathe much. #airship
     Reply
    Rumtum was starred Rumtum was unstarred
    Image of MissBuckyC MissBuckyC
    10/29/09

    @Rumtum: Don't forget they landed in Provincetown first, but there were already too many tourists, they couldn't find a room in any B & B, so they moved on. #airship
     Reply
    allium promoted this comment MissBuckyC was starred MissBuckyC was unstarred
    Image of Althestane Althestane
    10/29/09

    @Rumtum: not quite so warmly received actually. Pilgrims chose to settle on land that the natives knew was worthless and plagued with periodic disease. I remember reading that they were allowed to stay because native leadership found it politically expedient for some reason. They fully expected them to die out or be absorbed into native societies. Little did they know that the Pilgrims brought pigs, bees and rats with them. #airship
     Reply
    Sunshineyness promoted this comment Althestane was starred Althestane was unstarred
    Image of Sunshineyness Sunshineyness
    10/29/09

    @Althestane: They were also not all "pilgrims" on the Mayflower. There were other types of settlers on that boat as well, not all of them were fleeing persecution. #airship
     Reply
    Sunshineyness was starred Sunshineyness was unstarred
    Image of The_Sporean_Bob The_Sporean_Bob
    10/29/09

    @Althestane: they weren't received at all at first. They landed where all the natives had died out due to the smallpox epidemic brought by the Jamestown settlers that had raged up the coastline. The only reason they survived at first was because they raided the graves of dead natives (Amerindians in that area buried their dead with food, apparently). Then Squanto (Tisquantum, which basically means 'Wrath of God' in his native language) comes along and can speak english, cause he's been brought to Europe and back twice, and helps them survive (mostly cause his tribe is completely dead). I seem to remember that Massasoit didn't pay much attention to them besides allying with them, cause they were more worried about Mohican/Mohawk invasion after most of the Wampanoag had died out.

    All information comes from 1491 by Charles C. Mann #airship
     Reply
    Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H. promoted this comment The_Sporean_Bob was starred The_Sporean_Bob was unstarred
    Image of firstofnormalin firstofnormalin
    10/29/09

    @Sunshineyness:
    The Mayflower people were just about evenly divided between the religious Separatists and the traders, with a few hired guns (Miles Standish, et al). They first tried to land at P-Town, but couldn't navigate the shoals; their next landing was at Nausset, where they pillaged a few graves for souvenirs and stole the winter corn supply. Finally they (probably didn't) land on Plymouth Rock, where my 11th G-G-grandfather was born.
    Generally the Puritans and Pilgrims traded with the natives, except for liquor and firearms.
    They don't tell you the story about the Pilgrim who was hanged as a habitual criminal or the guy who "liked" sheep.

    ROW THAT SLOOP BILLINGS, YOU BASTARD! YAAA! THE NEXT TIME THEY TURN THE MAYFLOWER 2, YOU BETTER INVITE ME!

    (Sorry. It's the ancestral family grudge coming out again...) #airship
     Reply
    Sunshineyness promoted this comment firstofnormalin was starred firstofnormalin was unstarred
    Image of Sunshineyness Sunshineyness
    10/29/09

    @firstofnormalin: Now I think that story would be so adorable if you had a bunch of gade-schoolers putting that on.

    (I was the kid in the Thanksgiving pageant in 3rd grade complaining that it wasn't historically accurate.) #airship
     Reply
    Sunshineyness was starred Sunshineyness was unstarred
    Image of firstofnormalin firstofnormalin
    10/29/09

    @Althestane:
    (As long as I'm rattling on here...)
    "Die out or be absorbed" Remember what happened to the trading colony in what would later be Maine, around 1615 or so. All guys. The natives let them starve and later bought them as slaves. Do believe the Pilgrims had to go rescue them.
    The natives were no nice guys. They kept slaves and had a widespread slaving network, the other natives they captured they tortured to death, they cleared land and hunted by setting wildfires and in the Midwest they set up buffalo jumps and let a good percentage of the meat just lie there and rot. Ecologists not them.
    The pilgrims had steel; that was like having the atomic bomb, especially since around 1600 the Seneca started pushing into MA/RI and taking over from the other tribes. #airship
     Reply
    Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H. promoted this comment firstofnormalin was starred firstofnormalin was unstarred
    Image of Althestane Althestane
    10/30/09

    @firstofnormalin: all true! Though in the end, the settlers didn't require steel to completely dominate the native's lands. There was a great National Geographic article that basically outlined that the settlers unknowingly waged ecological and biological warfare on the native population. The east coast tribes had a fairly sophisticated agricultural system with crop rotations and leaving fields fallow, though it was not something that westerners would recognize. The 'Pilgrims' agricultural system came in and destroyed the balanced NA system. They also brought fruit trees and non-native plants that choked out existing vegetation and the humble, imported bees were made quite busy pollinating and spreading the European ecology instead of native species. Westerners literally changed the earth under their feet and the entire habitat around them. #airship
     Reply
    Althestane was starred Althestane was unstarred
    Image of firstofnormalin firstofnormalin
    10/31/09

    @Althestane:
    all true. "literally changed the earth under their feet" Quite literally--they brought earthworms into North America. I've heard some talk that some of Ye Olde New England Stonne Walls might have been built by the natives, which implies year-round settlement, as do the ossuaries on Cape Cod. It's also possible that smallpox was carried into the "New World" by European fisherman much before the Pilgrim/Puritan landed (the story about Lord Jeff Amherst and the smallpox blankets isn't true).

    More than likely if the Glorious Rebellion hadn't happened and a lot of people went to "Northern Virginia" (New England) because of the 30 Years War, the Puritans would have been driven out. Believe L. Sprague DeCamp wrote about that scienerio in one of the Wheels of If stories. #airship
     Reply
    firstofnormalin was starred firstofnormalin was unstarred
    Image of firstofnormalin firstofnormalin
    10/31/09

    @Sunshineyness:
    Yeah, but you'd lose half the cast from starvation during the first winter.
    And watch out or that one Pilgrim kid who got fined for fornication a few years later and bore such a grudge that he never joined the church until he was on his deathbed (no names need be mentioned) #airship
     Reply
    firstofnormalin was starred firstofnormalin was unstarred
    Image of OW-Holmes:Bringer of Fear OW-Holmes:Bringer of Fear
    10/29/09

    In reply to Airship Greets a Time-Traveling Mayflower in New York Harbor
    Mayflower 2:Electric Boogaloo #airship
     Reply
    OW-Holmes:Bringer of Fear was starred OW-Holmes:Bringer of Fear was unstarred
    Image of TemporalSword TemporalSword
    10/29/09

    In reply to Airship Greets a Time-Traveling Mayflower in New York Harbor
    What if they traveled forward in time, and killed Obama's dad, but he still became president anyway, and there was lots of lens flare? #airship
     Reply
    TemporalSword was starred TemporalSword was unstarred
    Image of HowIsYourFlat HowIsYourFlat
    10/29/09

    @TemporalSword: You haven't heard of multiverse and branching timelines? #airship
     Reply
    TemporalSword promoted this comment HowIsYourFlat was starred HowIsYourFlat was unstarred
    Image of TemporalSword TemporalSword
    10/29/09

    @HowIsYourFlat: Is multiverse like a "multi-pass"? And the only branching I know of is the tree in my front yard.

    Wait, I just thought of something: what if it's happened exactly like this already? I think I just blew my own mind.
     Reply
    Edited by TemporalSword at 10/29/09 6:34 AM TemporalSword was starred TemporalSword was unstarred
    Image of AngryEddy AngryEddy
    10/29/09

    @TemporalSword: It'll only be worth it if Captain Christopher Jones shouts "FIRE EVERYTHING!!!" at some point... #airship
     Reply
    AngryEddy was starred AngryEddy was unstarred
    Image of AmishJohn AmishJohn
    10/29/09

    @TemporalSword: "Leelou Dallas Multipass. Mull-Tee-Pass." #airship
     Reply
    AmishJohn was starred AmishJohn was unstarred
    Image of AmishJohn AmishJohn
    10/29/09

    @TemporalSword: All of this has happened before, and will happen again. #airship
     Reply
    AmishJohn was starred AmishJohn was unstarred
    Image of TemporalSword TemporalSword
    10/29/09

    @AmishJohn: Break the cycle!

    (Also, nice catch with the multi-pass, wasn't sure anyone would get it.) #airship
     Reply
    TemporalSword was starred TemporalSword was unstarred
    Image of Chip Skylark of Space Chip Skylark of Space
    10/29/09


    @AmishJohn: #airship
     Reply
    Chip Skylark of Space was starred Chip Skylark of Space was unstarred
    Image of Grey_Area Grey_Area
    09/02/09

    In reply to Live Out Your Airship Fantasies in Zeppelin-Shaped Hotel
    Oh, the hospitality!!
     Reply
    Grey_Area was starred Grey_Area was unstarred
    Image of Evdor Evdor
    09/02/09

    @Grey_Area: No need to comment further, ladies and gentlemen. Grey Area's got you covered.
     Reply
    Evdor was starred Evdor was unstarred
    Image of Pope John Peeps II Pope John Peeps II
    09/02/09

    @Evdor: Although really, could he have at least whipped up a photochop? Maybe the hindenberg spilling cupcakes and fried chicken?
     Reply
    Pope John Peeps II was starred Pope John Peeps II was unstarred
    Image of Evdor Evdor
    09/02/09

    @Pope John Peeps II: Or for those of us with truly sick senses of humor, a simple caption bubble that reads. "Jesus, doesn't this room have air conditioning? It's freaking HOT as hell in here!"

    ...I'm a bad man.
     Reply
    Evdor was starred Evdor was unstarred
    Image of Grey_Area Grey_Area
    09/02/09

    @Pope John Peeps II: Nope. Laaazy.
     Reply
    Grey_Area was starred Grey_Area was unstarred
    Image of crashedpc - Haifisch crashedpc - Haifisch
    09/02/09

    @Grey_Area: See, that's the problem. People just doing drive-by witticisms, not even bothering to follow up on their genius by substantiating it with some sort of tangible visual proof. LAAAAAAZZZZZZZZZZZZY
     Reply
    crashedpc - Haifisch was starred crashedpc - Haifisch was unstarred
    Image of NerD: Blattella NerD: Blattella
    09/02/09

    @Grey_Area: Too soon, man, way too soon.
     Reply
    NerD: Blattella was starred NerD: Blattella was unstarred
    Image of jbq jbq
    09/02/09

    @Grey_Area: Talk about zing.. I can't believe that didn't even occur to me before I read your comment. Well played, sir, well played.
     Reply
    jbq was starred jbq was unstarred
    Image of The Curse of Millhaven The Curse of Millhaven
    09/02/09

    In reply to Live Out Your Airship Fantasies in Zeppelin-Shaped Hotel
    Bring your own hydrogen.
     Reply
    The Curse of Millhaven was starred The Curse of Millhaven was unstarred
    Image of GodofMonkeys GodofMonkeys
    09/02/09

    In reply to Live Out Your Airship Fantasies in Zeppelin-Shaped Hotel
    A zepplin hotel? So in an alternate reality, what would it be?
     Reply
    jbq promoted this comment GodofMonkeys was starred GodofMonkeys was unstarred
    Image of jbq jbq
    09/02/09

    @GodofMonkeys: ..built of bricks..? Forget it, I've got nothing...
     Reply
    jbq was starred jbq was unstarred
    Image of lightninglouie lightninglouie
    11/17/08

    In reply to Zeppelins Transport You To Your Floating Island Hotel
    Oh, the Spongmonkeys are gonna love this.
     Reply
    lightninglouie was starred lightninglouie was unstarred
    Image of Chiper Chiper
    11/17/08

    In reply to Zeppelins Transport You To Your Floating Island Hotel
    I am immediately reminded of one of the opening scenes in Diamond Age, where a victorian birthday party is conveyed via blimp to an island of flash-grown coral.
     Reply
    Chiper was starred Chiper was unstarred
    Image of Grey_Area Grey_Area
    11/17/08

    @Chiper: All the children play with artificial centaurs and baby dinosaurs while the parents are doing the Electric Slide in top hats and crinoline skirts.

    So sweet.
     Reply
    Grey_Area was starred Grey_Area was unstarred
    Image of reddingofish reddingofish
    11/17/08

    In reply to Zeppelins Transport You To Your Floating Island Hotel
    What happens when James Bond has a gun fight inside?
     Reply
    reddingofish was starred reddingofish was unstarred
    Image of Gann Gann
    11/17/08

    @reddingofish: People die. Women get pleasured. The world is made of awesome.
     Reply
    Gann was starred Gann was unstarred
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