Someone who worked on the film told me that Schumacher had read every single Batman story ever published in preparation for his two Batman films. And if you look hard enough, you can see how he attempted to synthesize all the approaches. It didn't make either film any better, but knowing this has always made them more comprehensible for me, for some reason. #akivagoldsman
@ArthurByronCover: Huh. That explains the odd flash of mid-seventies Jim Aparo Batman that I sensed during Batman Forever. I thought I was just fooling myself into thinking it was a better film than it was ... maybe he *was* trying to do something right. #akivagoldsman
"it did teach us all that there is a wrong way and a right way to make campy comic book movies"
You mean, Hollywood is supposed to learn from it's mistakes?
I liked how Sam Raimi boiled down his career: he does only the films he wants, and the previous project funds and teaches lessons about the next project. You know, like a proper business model of investing your money. #akivagoldsman
Aside from the bat-nips, Alicia Silverstone's moustache, and a lifetime of mental torment, the thing I always take away from Batman & Robin is the lesson about having way too many leading characters (also known as the "You don't need two villains" rule). B&R is the sole reason I cringe if a superhero movie mentions multiple villains or heroes. It's why the idea of the Avengers sort of scares me. #akivagoldsman
@AngryEddy: And yet...and yet, we still had Spider-man 3. Apparently Raimi did not watch B&R, or if he did, he did not learn this lesson. #akivagoldsman
@TemporalSword: Sam Raimi only wanted Sandman. He was pushed into having Venom in story to make more contemporary or some nonsense like that. #akivagoldsman
@TemporalSword: And yet...and yet, "Batman Begins" had two villains. Thus we learn, that even the most important rules have vital exceptions #akivagoldsman
@Bill-Lee: Which is ironic, because the only thing I hated more than Venom in S3 was the way Sandman was shoehorned into the story via Uncle Ben's death.
Ok, so I guess the studios need to re-learn the lesson, too. #akivagoldsman
@1Grand_Marquis: I think two villains can be done (both new Batman movies come to mind) as long as you have a lone hero. S3 and B&R had two villains, but then up to three good guys to boot. Way too many.
In retrospect I actually like Batman and Robin since it gave us Batman Begins and Dark Knight, and really all the decent comic book movies since X-Men.
If it wasn't a total bomb we probably would have spent the summer of 2008 watching Ryan Reynolds as Bats with Leboeuf as Robin fighting 50 Cent's Killer Croc and Megan Fox's Talia under neon lights instead.
Every time I hear his name I still cringe because I remember this, along with Lost in Space. Despite the things he may have done right (Beautiful Mind), I still dread any genre work he's involved in. #akivagoldsman
@TemporalSword: I always forget how bad Lost in Space was until someone else brings it up, then it's like "Ooooohhhh yeah, that was horrible". #akivagoldsman
@TemporalSword: On a positive note, it did remove Matt LeBlanc from being the delivery method for any future Hollywood-sponsored suffering. #akivagoldsman
@Whitworthian: Actually, I didn't really like it, either, but it's generally regarded as a good movie (it did win an oscar, after all, beating out LOTR:FOTR *grumble grumble*), so it can't be looked on as a failure for Goldsman, whether you like it or not.
@tetracycloide: Because sometimes real life stories make terrible movies.
In this case, the film basically follows the protagonist through difficult travails, only to end on a bizarrely out of place grace note where some minor and (narratively) forgotten achievement from his earlier life turns out to be something significant, and he's lauded for it.
It has no dramatic arc. There is no sense of accomplishment. No point to the overblown hour of conspiracy/paranoia sequence, because it just doesn't matter to the end of the story.
The Oscars have a history of acknowledging sentimental favorites over superior films. This is one of those instances. And it didn't hurt that a few of the other nominees were problematic in one regard or another. #akivagoldsman
@Whitworthian: but being sentimental does not make a movie inferior on face. it may not be what you prefer in a movie but it's hardly accurate to say, objectively, that a movie is inferior to other films merely because it was more sentimental than those films. sentimentality, for better or worse, is an aspect of human story telling that matters and a movie that is able to do it that effectively over that wide an audience should be luaded for it because that is a very difficult thing to do. people only like sentimentality when it relates to them, a beautiful mind obviously didn't relate to you, but this should not discount the fact that it did relate to a much broader population than typical sentimental films do. #akivagoldsman
@Whitworthian: oh, you're talking oscar politics. i thought we were talking movies. if there's oscar politics at work here i don't know or care what they are i'm only interested in films. #akivagoldsman
@tetracycloide: I was talking films and their quality. I also conflated a response to the other poster's supposition that "Oscar = good" into my reply.
You somehow thought that my negative response was based on my emotional response to the film... when my criticism was entirely based on how it worked as a story. #akivagoldsman
@Whitworthian: but you didn't like how it worked as a story because you couldn't relate to the emotions of the story. so your emotional response is inextricably linked to your criticism of how it works as a story. #akivagoldsman
@tetracycloide: No. I didn't like the story because it was unsuccessfully structured as a story. Structure does not equal emotion.
It was admittedly a well-acted, well-made film. However, if it had been an original story, it would not have been made because it does not work well as a story.
Look at it in basic, non-emotional terms:
The main character does something of little dramatic importance (construct an economic theory) that is abandoned early in the narrative. Then a majority of the story's narrative is spent in an extremely dramatic experience (the conspiracy/paranoia thing stemming from mental illness) that ultimately ruins him and nearly costs him everything (job, wife, etc.). The majority of the narrative is spent dealing with these experiences. Then out of the blue, someone pops in and says "Hey, that economic theory you came up with all those years ago before you went crazy is really good. Here's a prize!"
The beginning and ending of the film have no bearing on the stuff in the middle. That's terrible from a dramatic point of view.
I don't know how much clearer I can be when I say it was a terrible story. The guy wrote Batman Forever, Batman & Robin, I, Robot, and I am Legend. It's entirely possible that his "respectable" writing might not be that good as well. #akivagoldsman
@Whitworthian: you can't look at it in basic, non-emotional terms because the events aren't linked logically, they're linked emotionally. the nobel prize is as much a throw away item at the end of the story as it is at the beginning, the story isn't about the prize, it's about how a mentally damaged man overcame his defect and was lauded for it by his peers (the pens). which you're missing because you're looking at it in non-emotional terms which is your emotional response to the story, to you the important thing was the prize and since it's not important in the film you didn't like it. #akivagoldsman
You asked me why I thought it was a terrible film. I explained my position clearly.
If your goal was to try to convince me that the film succeeded when I feel it failed, you were unsuccessful. If you somehow wanted to convince me to re-evaluate my position on the film, all I can say is that the more I think about it, the more I believe it fails.
On the other hand, I've enjoyed Goldsman's work on Fringe, so make of that what you will. #akivagoldsman
@Whitworthian: i'm not trying t convince you to like the film. i'm trying to explain why the film garnered critical acclaim by pointing out your reasons for not liking the film are not technical, as you say they are, but emotional.
i don't really get it to be honest. so you didn't like the film, why does that mean there has to be something wrong with it? can't a film be technically great and go unliked by whitworthian? #akivagoldsman
@Moff: I've still never seen it all. I've tried to watch it on TV when it comes on just to see how truly bad it is, but I jut can't make it through more than a few minutes. #akivagoldsman
@Dr Emilio Lizardo: I never have either, actually. Although I may have a special place in my pant-- er, heart for Uma Thurman's big entrance scene. #akivagoldsman
@Dr Emilio Lizardo: I've never seen it either *but* I strongly suggest that you watch the Nostaglia Critic's version. He hits all the big points and there's a song at the end! #akivagoldsman
10/19/09
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My son watched B&R at a friend's house last month and has mumbling about the horror of Bat-Nipples ever since... #akivagoldsman
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You mean, Hollywood is supposed to learn from it's mistakes?
I liked how Sam Raimi boiled down his career: he does only the films he wants, and the previous project funds and teaches lessons about the next project. You know, like a proper business model of investing your money. #akivagoldsman
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If downy fuzz on a woman is wrong, I don't wanna be right. #akivagoldsman
10/19/09
Ok, so I guess the studios need to re-learn the lesson, too. #akivagoldsman
10/19/09
10/19/09
However, I still really like Clooney's Bruce Wayne and relationship with Alfred. #akivagoldsman
10/19/09
If it wasn't a total bomb we probably would have spent the summer of 2008 watching Ryan Reynolds as Bats with Leboeuf as Robin fighting 50 Cent's Killer Croc and Megan Fox's Talia under neon lights instead.
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William Hurt and Mimi Rogers both constantly looking like they'd just gotten a papercut... stupid CGI creature that was supposed to be cute... ugh.
Just awful all around. #akivagoldsman
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10/20/09
In this case, the film basically follows the protagonist through difficult travails, only to end on a bizarrely out of place grace note where some minor and (narratively) forgotten achievement from his earlier life turns out to be something significant, and he's lauded for it.
It has no dramatic arc. There is no sense of accomplishment. No point to the overblown hour of conspiracy/paranoia sequence, because it just doesn't matter to the end of the story.
The Oscars have a history of acknowledging sentimental favorites over superior films. This is one of those instances. And it didn't hurt that a few of the other nominees were problematic in one regard or another. #akivagoldsman
10/20/09
10/20/09
In this case the sentimentality was towards a well-liked and respected director who'd never gotten an Oscar. #akivagoldsman
10/20/09
10/20/09
You somehow thought that my negative response was based on my emotional response to the film... when my criticism was entirely based on how it worked as a story. #akivagoldsman
10/20/09
10/20/09
It was admittedly a well-acted, well-made film. However, if it had been an original story, it would not have been made because it does not work well as a story.
Look at it in basic, non-emotional terms:
The main character does something of little dramatic importance (construct an economic theory) that is abandoned early in the narrative. Then a majority of the story's narrative is spent in an extremely dramatic experience (the conspiracy/paranoia thing stemming from mental illness) that ultimately ruins him and nearly costs him everything (job, wife, etc.). The majority of the narrative is spent dealing with these experiences. Then out of the blue, someone pops in and says "Hey, that economic theory you came up with all those years ago before you went crazy is really good. Here's a prize!"
The beginning and ending of the film have no bearing on the stuff in the middle. That's terrible from a dramatic point of view.
I don't know how much clearer I can be when I say it was a terrible story. The guy wrote Batman Forever, Batman & Robin, I, Robot, and I am Legend. It's entirely possible that his "respectable" writing might not be that good as well. #akivagoldsman
10/20/09
10/20/09
You asked me why I thought it was a terrible film. I explained my position clearly.
If your goal was to try to convince me that the film succeeded when I feel it failed, you were unsuccessful. If you somehow wanted to convince me to re-evaluate my position on the film, all I can say is that the more I think about it, the more I believe it fails.
On the other hand, I've enjoyed Goldsman's work on Fringe, so make of that what you will. #akivagoldsman
10/20/09
i don't really get it to be honest. so you didn't like the film, why does that mean there has to be something wrong with it? can't a film be technically great and go unliked by whitworthian? #akivagoldsman
10/19/09
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It makes every other superhero movie automatically better. #akivagoldsman
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It's actually pretty damn funny. The rubber icicles and Batman as a dick scenes are worth it if you stumble over it on basic cable.
[www.youtube.com] #akivagoldsman
05/15/09
05/15/09
you forgot "wearing underwear"
05/15/09
what about if shes not wearing underwear? Just throwing it out there
05/15/09
Then I will change my mind about the quality of this show in a heartbeat.
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(snicker)
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