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5 Lessons We Hope RTD's Learned From His Past Doctor Who Epics
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Asbestos_Underwear
11/29/09

In reply to 5 Lessons We Hope RTD's Learned From His Past Doctor Who Epics
I bet you five Dollars on the Master and the Doctor raving for 90 minutes how they are the last of the timelords and this epic battle concludes something something.

Cue the Doctor's daughter from this season storming in, resolving the matter in 5 seconds and dumping the 11th Doctor at our feet before rushing on.
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LaniZoso
11/28/09

In reply to 5 Lessons We Hope RTD's Learned From His Past Doctor Who Epics
Does it really need to be restated that Doctor Who is a British series made first for the British audience? Whether or not the references work in the US is irrelevant. The satirical point in including them, however, is fairly obviously to express Davies' disdain for the reality TV trend. If you can't appreciate a point as blatant as that, well, it doesn't really say much for your critical insight into Davies' writing, eh?
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CJG
11/28/09

In reply to 5 Lessons We Hope RTD's Learned From His Past Doctor Who Epics
Big Brother, Weakest Link and What Not to Wear all have (or had) fairly successful American versions. You don't really have to be British to get those three references.
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ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H.
11/28/09

In reply to 5 Lessons We Hope RTD's Learned From His Past Doctor Who Epics
Is Bad Wolf a British pop culture reference? Would someone understand that if they lived on the other side of the pond? I noticed it as popping up everywhere, almost immediately, and figured there were going to be some canine aliens or something, and then it turned out to be hints left in time by an omnipotent Rose who should've known at that point that no one got the hints because it doesn't mean anything! But she still has to do it because the hints were there and she has to maintain the time loop but the words mean nothing! If you're going to use obsessive minuscule detail foreshadowing, MAKE IT MEAN SOMETHING AT THE END! FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY SOMEONE TELL ME WHAT I WAS SUPPOSED TO GET OUT OF BAD WOLF!
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Alasdair5000
11/28/09

@ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H.: I took it that the incongruity of Bad Wolf was the whole point. It's a nonsense phrase, a bookmark in the web browser of time that only makes sense once Rose gets to a very specific point.
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ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H.
11/28/09

@Alasdair5000: But what point was it? When she puts it everywhere? Or are you saying that the last Bad Wolf was there originally for some strange reason? This has bugged me forever.
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Kessica
11/28/09

@ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H.: What bugs me is after Donna had the crazy time changing bug on her back, what was up with the Bad Wolf writing EVERYWHERE, no one noticing it, and, well, what?

Also, the original never made too much sense to me either, but it was pretty consistently nonsensical.
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Alasdair5000
11/29/09

@ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H.: I always sort of took it that the bookmarking through time was because Rose in the future had taken the phrase as a marker of where and when the truly awful thing that would require her to merge with the time vortex would take place.

Which is not a sentence you get to write every day:)
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Alasdair5000
11/29/09

@Kessica: I basically took that, combined with the Cloister Bell ringing in the TARDIS as an overlay on reality. That Rose stepping back across was such a massive, curdling event for reality it had a transitory effect that the TARDIS was able to show the pair of them.

Of course that could all be nonsense but it was still a hell of an episode cliffhanger:)
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ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H.
11/29/09

@Alasdair5000: So the last Bad Wolf may have originally been there.
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Alasdair5000
12:18 AM

@ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H.: That's how I read it, yes. That the Bad Wolf Corporation was always called that and, because the events on the Gamestation are so pivotal, Rose chooses those words to scatter through time.
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ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H.
12:38 AM

@Alasdair5000: Ok, That makes a bit more sense.
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Davio
11/28/09

In reply to 5 Lessons We Hope RTD's Learned From His Past Doctor Who Epics
*POSSIBLE SPOLIER ALERT!*

I think the voice in the trailer is Brian Cox.

As for enjoying it, I KNOW I will enjoy it, unless it reachs "planet of the dead" levels of crapness. Even then I probably still will be on the edge of my seat... I cant wait!
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anAbsoluteLegend
11/28/09

In reply to 5 Lessons We Hope RTD's Learned From His Past Doctor Who Epics
"As an American, I still don't really know anything about half of the reality shows Davies was spoofing, and I can't for the life of me find any coherent satirical point in their inclusion."

I understand your criticism, but I don't think it's something which should have been included in your post as a poke at Davies.
It's a British show for a British audience. Quite like the majority of American shows which reference things most of us Brits don't know about.

We're different countries with different cultures and I would hate to see Doctor Who lose it's very British charm simply because it's lost on some Americans.
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Coleberg
11/28/09

@anAbsoluteLegend: I'd argue that it's not just about being less meaningful to other countries, but it also robs the show of its timelessness. There's now a lot of gags that only work for the UK in 2005-9, and will become not only defunct but potentially distracting in the future (as they seem to be now for American viewers). The British charm can, should and I trust will be ever present, but the cultural references are likely to become downsides in the future.
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mekki
11/28/09

@anAbsoluteLegend: As an American I have to agree with this. That's like a Brit asking the Tina Fey to stop making so many American pop culture references in 30 Rock in order to make the show more globally friendly.
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anAbsoluteLegend
11/28/09

@Coleberg: I certainly agree with that, but then can the same not be said for an awful lot of TV programmes?
I was just responding to the author being pissed off about not getting the jokes.
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Alasdair Wilkins
11/28/09

@mekki: That's a fair point. I think what I was trying to get at is that there didn't seem to be any point to the inclusion of those references except to say "Hey, look at these references I'm making!" a la about half the jokes on Family Guy. As such, the only way to find them amusing was to be already familiar with them, and I just don't think that's terribly good comedy writing. Your mileage may vary, of course, but that's the slightly expanded version of my point, and I do think it's a legitimate criticism, even if the contracted version isn't.

I probably have a bigger problem with those references than I otherwise would just because it was so ludicrous to stick the reality shows into a story set in the year 200,100.
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Alasdair5000
11/28/09

@Coleberg: But the cultural references in every form of pop culture are incongruous after a while. Look at the cellular phones in the original Matrix or the soundtrack. Look at early run CSI and a lot of the music has already dated.
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MonstersAndRockets
11/27/09

In reply to 5 Lessons We Hope RTD's Learned From His Past Doctor Who Epics
The Eccelston Doctor and Rose had a very interesting relationship, but for me the new series was a guilty pleasure at best until Rose left. I thought she was a really good character, but somehow the writing just seemed to improve by miles about the time that Martha came aboard and just kept getting better from there. The first season has a lot of cheesy pop cultural references, farting aliens and other silliness mixed in with some really effective stuff. As the show went on, a lot of the really goofy stuff was dropped, and the goofy stuff that remained (like the aliens made of human fat) was handled better. The tone became more consistent. And Tennant is just superb as the Doctor, easily the best since Tom Baker.

Davies certainly is divisive. I find the criticisms of him much more true for the early seasons. As it went on, he really figured out what he was doing. I think he's leaving at the top of his game. I wish he'd stick around a bit, but I suppose this is better than watching him get bored and lazy.
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McWarrior
11/27/09

In reply to 5 Lessons We Hope RTD's Learned From His Past Doctor Who Epics
Is it strange that I'm more interested in the End of Time to see what Jack is up to after Children of Earth than whatever the episode is actually about?

I sort of stopped caring about Doctor Who, but I really liked Torchwood.

I'm still shattered that they killed Owen. T___T
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mekki
11/27/09

In reply to 5 Lessons We Hope RTD's Learned From His Past Doctor Who Epics
I'd like to add a 6. He confuses sci-fi with fantasy. With fantasy you can make up anything without having a need to explain it or be based in logic and science. For example, a wizard can ripe a hole from one world to another without having to explain how the magic works. He can simply wave a charm and say a few words. Because it is fantasy, magic does not need to work within the structure of science. However, if you say a few metal aliens are able to punch between words because they move really, really fast and in really, really big groups, you better have some sort of real world science to back that up. Even if it's a theory. Otherwise, that isn't science fiction, that's fantasy.

RTD needs to seriously read a how to write science fiction handbook. And be willing to crack open a few text books or at the very least have a science adviser on staff.
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Platypus Man
11/27/09

@mekki: No, the fact that you have some sort of science backing it up makes it science fiction, not whether or not it has real-world science in it.

If you say a wizard did it with magic, it's fantasy, but if you say it was done because the aliens move really fast, and you give a reason for why that works, even if it doesn't make any sense, it's science fiction. It's based on some sort of scientific ideas or processes, not necessarily real-world science.

Science fiction doesn't have to work withing the structure of actual science, just some sort of science that they are allowed to create. Look at Star Trek -- warp drive and transporters are based off of science from within the show, but there isn't really anything real that backs them up. They are pseudoscience, and if you use too much pseudoscience, it's more technobabble than anything else.
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mekki
11/28/09

You are mixing up science fantasy with science fiction which are two separate genres. Or as Rod Serling put it, "science fiction makes the implausible possible, while science fantasy makes the impossible plausible." Science fiction, in order to be science fiction must indeed work within the rules of science as we know it. For example, as you mentioned, it is feasible that man in the future will create transporters using the science we have now as a building block. However, it is impossible for organic matter to punch a hole through universes simply by moving fast and in groups. The science we have does not support this in any shape or form.

Now if Doctor Who called itself a science fantasy show then I would have no problem with massive creatures creating wormholes in this manner. But Doctor Who isn't science fantasy. It's science fiction. And I only wish it would be treated as such.
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MolochTheCorruptor
11/28/09

@mekki: I think you're mixing up science fiction with hard science fiction. Most science fiction is the former - character and philosophy based, not science based - and doctor who definitely is, and always has been (We must reverse the polarity!).

I know what it's like to wrestle with established, etymologically incorrect terminoligy, but sometimes you have to let it go.
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Discodave: R.O.A.C.H. M.O.T.E.L.
11/28/09

@mekki: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Arthur C. Clarke.

I'm going with Clarke on this one.
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mekki
11/28/09

@MolochTheCorruptor: "I know what it's like to wrestle with established, etymologically incorrect terminoligy, but sometimes you have to let it go."

It's wrong of me to want RTD to simply crack open a book and do some research rather than make stuff up that goes against logic and science? Okay. I'm wrong then. Let him keep on using what ever comes to his head. Gods or the Devil at least. Magic in spoken spells. Age reversing happy thoughts. It's all good, right? Next time he can toss in a couple of elves and maybe a unicorn too.
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Cory Gross
11/28/09

@MolochTheCorruptor: I think you're mixing up Doctor Who with science fiction.

He's a man with a box that's bigger on the inside than on the outside and it moves through space and time where he can change some things but can't change other things and he can live through twelve separate lives for some reason.
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mekki
11/28/09

@Discodave: But that's the thing. Advanced technology can be magical but everything else has to fall in line with science. So again, while you can have a time machine that has been developed to be bigger on the inside because of some space warping thingamagig gizmo, you can't have creatures that have evolved to do things that are scientifically impossible without the aide of technology. Which is something that RTD ignores.
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smithereen
11/27/09

In reply to 5 Lessons We Hope RTD's Learned From His Past Doctor Who Epics
Being someone that watched the older episodes from the 70's and 80's, I rather enjoy the world/then several worlds/then whole universe needs saving aspect. This is THE DOCTOR, the last of the time lords, and his playground is all of time and space. With a responsibility that large, of course universe crushing ordeals will happen.
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samarkand
11/27/09

In reply to 5 Lessons We Hope RTD's Learned From His Past Doctor Who Epics
I just feel like I need to represent for people who genuinely have enjoyed almost everything RTD has done in Who. People act like it's just obvious that *everyone* hates the man and all his works, but that's not the case. It's just that there's so much hate for the man in fandom right now that people who love what he's done just keep our mouths shut and don't say anything. I don't think he's above criticism, but what he writes (not just Who but his other shows too) genuinely tweaks me at some neural level. I respect the man enormously.
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Magicant
11/27/09

@samarkand: Noted, and agreed with. He's done some fantastic stuff with the Doctor overall, IMO. The criticism is deserved for the most part, but the bashing isn't. What the Doctor is today is largely due to him, and that's a good thing.
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Blodwynn
11/27/09

@samarkand: Same. Others can say what they will, but I have to admit that Davies can put together a show extraordinarily well. The writing, casting, and whatnot of Doctor Who have (generally) exceeded my expectations. Not to say that he's God's gift to writing, but I think he has a knack for putting together entertaining shows that get you involved. I know I've cried for every finale so far. Even Series Three, despite my not liking Martha very much.
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Kenro199x
11/28/09

@samarkand: Well said. I hope he keeps doing what he's doing, that's what made me a Who fan to begin with and I hated Who for as long as I can remember. RTD made me love it and it made me go back to the older series (Pertwee is the man) and love those to.

So I hope he doesn't change a thing.
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Son-of-MonsterChalk
11/27/09

In reply to 5 Lessons We Hope RTD's Learned From His Past Doctor Who Epics
I just hope and know that Moffat hopefully/probably won't bring in "favorite" celebrities like Cathrine Tate.

I mean that straight up was just Davies picking someone HE liked the most and frankly she was a horrible "companion."

Annoying and boorish don't equal entertaining.
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ophmarketing
11/27/09

@Son-of-MonsterChalk: Um...Donna was actually my favorite of the 'new' companions...
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wealhtheow
11/27/09

@ophmarketing: She was a great companion, because she was a)a well realized character and b)sparked off of the Doctor well. that made for a lot more drama and comedy than just making the Companion get kidnapped again, which seems to happen in 50% of DW plots.
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mekki
11/27/09

@Son-of-MonsterChalk: You hated her? I thought she was fantastic. Donna, unlike Martha and Rose, didn't look to the Doctor to be a father figure or a boyfriend. She accepted him and allowed him to be what he was, an alien. Namely a Time Lord. I just hope the new series follows that trend and doesn't try to make the new Doctor a love interest again.
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smithereen
11/27/09

@mekki: I completely agree. I liked Rose, and then I liked Martha more, but I loved Donna. She was packed and ready to go when the Doctor returned., no hesitation, she just wanted to see what's out there. The love interest with Rose was good because it was so... not-the-Doctor, but Donna was a great everyman to tag along.
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Magicant
11/27/09

In reply to 5 Lessons We Hope RTD's Learned From His Past Doctor Who Epics
Davies is like George Lucas. Great idea guy, but PLEASE leave the details and execution to others!
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Mary Ratliff
11/27/09

@Magicant: I was _just_ about to write that in response to somebody else! I have long been saying Mr. Lucas needs to sit back and throw out ideas and let other people run around and make them come true. I think RTD is similar. He also seems to be a great producer, which is commendable, it's something I'm no good at. He can pull the threads together, and that's great.

But I just don't like the way he writes his endings.
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terabitten
11/27/09

In reply to 5 Lessons We Hope RTD's Learned From His Past Doctor Who Epics
RTD writes great dramas--just look at Turn Left or some of his pre-DW work--but his sci-fi suffers from the problems already mentioned.

Anybody else noticed that the episodes where RTD has a co-writer are some of the best of New Who and so much better than the RTD-only eps? This is a winning formula they didn't exploit nearly enough over the last fe years?
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mekki
11/27/09

@terabitten: I agree. The man can do great character driven drama but throw in a robot or a black hole and his stories fall to pieces. He confuses sci-fi with fantasy too much and seems to refuse to do any scientific research that would help out his stories.
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Elpon
11/27/09

In reply to 5 Lessons We Hope RTD's Learned From His Past Doctor Who Epics
*SPOILERS*
When i first saw Journey's End, I started about halfway in just about when its revealed Sarah Jane is packing some sort of doomsday device. Just before they can use it they are teleported away to where all the other guest stars are being held.

After that I wondered "why even bring it up if it was never going to be used?" Maybe it was just fan service or a throwback but it just came out as pointless.

Upon rewatching the episode recently I came to see that EVERYONE was packing a doomsday device. This of course changed how I viewed the episode.

While it tried to set up this russian roulette scenario, it just lessened the impact of the moment. They all ended up getting scrapped anyway which made them even more pointless.
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Mary Ratliff
11/27/09

@Elpon: I _think_ that what they were trying to do was make the Doctor upset that while he'd more or less created all these "children of time" that he'd been bringing with him to try to teach and make better, ALL of them resorted to Doomsday devices, suicide, and the death of Earth as their means of solving the problem, something that he wouldn't do in the first season when destroying the Daleks meant destroying Earth.

It was to demoralize him, and tweak him because he realized he was doing it wrong. Or at least, that's how I saw it. And that's not to say they really developed or delved into that thought.
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Elpon
11/27/09

@Mary Ratliff: Actually that makes way more sense the way you explain it. I just saw it as a unused plot thread. I can totally see that now.
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