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San Francisco, 2:28 AM
Thu Dec 10
25 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of Anekanta - Go Play! Anekanta - Go Play!
    12/08/09

    In reply to The Evolutionary Cost of Being Extremely Sexy
    I'm still skeptical about how well fruitfly mating habits scale to human mating habits; especially in how "fitness" is defined.

    Are we talking physical, mental, social, or emotional fitness? Surely there is more to fitness than simply fecundity.

    Also, is it possible that there's a downside to having too healthy or too fit a population? (over-population / over-consumption of resources; over-specialization, etc.)?

    I'm not well versed in biology, but it just seems like any concept of fitness is highly dependent on the environmental context an organism finds itself in.
     Reply
    Anekanta - Go Play! was starred Anekanta - Go Play! was unstarred
    Image of Annalee Newitz Annalee Newitz
    12/08/09

    @Anekanta - killed by a cacodemon: I don't believe the scientists suggested there was much of a connection between fruitfly and human mating habits. Humans are affected by a lot of factors other than pure evolutionary urges. In other words, there is no Lady Gaga of fruitflies.
     Reply
    Annalee Newitz was starred Annalee Newitz was unstarred
    Image of Dresan Dresan
    12/08/09

    @Annalee Newitz: We think we are but really, in the whole scheme of nature, we're just another animal.

    ...

    An animal capable of LOVE.

    #biology
     Reply
    Dresan was starred Dresan was unstarred
    Image of Anekanta - Go Play! Anekanta - Go Play!
    12/08/09

    @Annalee Newitz: I guess that's just as well--one Lady Gaga on planet Earth seems like more than enough already.
     Reply
    Anekanta - Go Play! was starred Anekanta - Go Play! was unstarred
    Image of Delphinus100 Delphinus100
    12/09/09

    @Dresan: Which doesn't change the issue. We don't always mate/marry for love, and we're capable of falling in love with a variety of body-types...
     Reply
    Dresan promoted this comment Delphinus100 was starred Delphinus100 was unstarred
    Image of GarnetLynne GarnetLynne
    12/09/09

    @Anekanta - Go Play!: unfortuantely we aren't fruitflies and we've over populated the world even with the weak and infirmed. And humans are killing each other off like rats in a maze. If we were fruitflies we would have a short cycle and less population.
     Reply
    Anekanta - Go Play! promoted this comment GarnetLynne was starred GarnetLynne was unstarred
    Image of Anekanta - Go Play! Anekanta - Go Play!
    12/09/09

    @GarnetLynne: I agree that there are too many people on the planet, but I don't think we can really evaluate them on the basis of "weakness" or infirmity. Do you mean physically weak? Mentally, socially, emotionally, or morally weak?

    Like in the original post, what qualifies as "fitness"?
     Reply
    Anekanta - Go Play! was starred Anekanta - Go Play! was unstarred
    Image of Plague Plague
    12/08/09

    In reply to The Evolutionary Cost of Being Extremely Sexy
    Well, at least the skeleton isn't photoshopped.
     Reply
    Plague was starred Plague was unstarred
    Image of tetracycloide tetracycloide
    12/08/09

    @Plague: are you kidding? there's no way those lumbar vertebrae are real!
     Reply
    tetracycloide was starred tetracycloide was unstarred
    Image of Im_your_Huckleberry Im_your_Huckleberry
    12/08/09

    In reply to Is Biological Life the Source of Martian Methane?
    Tell Marvin to lay off the chili.
     Reply
    Im_your_Huckleberry was starred Im_your_Huckleberry was unstarred
    Image of jajbowler jajbowler
    12/08/09

    In reply to Is Biological Life the Source of Martian Methane?
    "How does 2017 work for you?"
    "Can't, I have a morning meeting."
    "2018?"
    "Well, I'm supposed to have a luncheon that afternoon, but I suppose it can be rescheduled."
     Reply
    jajbowler was starred jajbowler was unstarred
    Image of Roklimber Roklimber
    12/08/09

    In reply to Is Biological Life the Source of Martian Methane?
    Duh, everyone knows that there are cows on Mars. That's where all the methane comes from. :)
     Reply
    Roklimber was starred Roklimber was unstarred
    Image of Makidian Makidian
    12/08/09

    @Roklimber: Martian mega-dairy farms camo'd to look like the surface, you might be on to something. That must be how they are trying to get their planet warm again, cow farts.
     Reply
    Makidian was starred Makidian was unstarred
    Image of cmg cmg
    12/08/09

    @Roklimber: forget California. happy cows are from Mars! cheese anyone?
     Reply
    Edited by cmg at 12/08/09 1:38 PM cmg was starred cmg was unstarred
    Image of Kitradu Kitradu
    12/08/09

    @Roklimber: Martian farts, lol.
     Reply
    Roklimber promoted this comment Kitradu was starred Kitradu was unstarred
    Image of crosis101 crosis101
    12/08/09

    @cmg: everyone knows it's the MOON that's made of cheese. Duh :->
     Reply
    Roklimber promoted this comment crosis101 was starred crosis101 was unstarred
    Image of tetracycloide tetracycloide
    12/08/09

    @crosis101: everyone knows the moon is made of martian cheese, duh.
     Reply
    tetracycloide was starred tetracycloide was unstarred
    Image of Roklimber Roklimber
    12/08/09

    @crosis101: Speaking of that, I just realized that our solar system is perfect for party animals.

    The Earth is full of water, which is important since when you party hard you need to keep yourself hydrated.

    The Moon is made of cheese, and Mars is red line wine. Cheese and wine go well in parties.

    Then, of course, you need music and, to be in style, you can choose old 45-rpm records, just like the rings of Saturn.

    And, in case there are minors in the party who need someone to keep an eye on them, there's always papa Jupiter with its Red Eye a couple of astronomical units away.
     Reply
    Roklimber was starred Roklimber was unstarred
    Image of RandomFrequentFlierDent RandomFrequentFlierDent
    12/08/09

    @Roklimber: Darn it, Space Cows was going to be my explanation for the presence of methane on Mar.
     Reply
    RandomFrequentFlierDent was starred RandomFrequentFlierDent was unstarred
    Image of Roklimber Roklimber
    12/08/09

    @RandomFrequentFlierDent: Ha! I beat ya! :))
     Reply
    Roklimber was starred Roklimber was unstarred
    Image of RandomFrequentFlierDent RandomFrequentFlierDent
    12/08/09

    @Roklimber: You are the Charles Darwin to my Alfred Russel Wallace!
     Reply
    RandomFrequentFlierDent was starred RandomFrequentFlierDent was unstarred
    Image of Roklimber Roklimber
    12/08/09

    @RandomFrequentFlierDent: LOL!

    If only you knew how true that is...

    A few years ago I wrote my own version of Darwin's theory of evolution, which I called the Theory Of Revolution. You can read it here, if you're interested:

    [blogs.suntimes.com]
     Reply
    Roklimber was starred Roklimber was unstarred
    Image of Anekanta - Go Play! Anekanta - Go Play!
    12/08/09

    @Roklimber: But they look like giant Jersey beetles! Then again, I haven't eaten lunch today, and I find myself wondering what Martian steak tastes like...
     Reply
    Anekanta - Go Play! was starred Anekanta - Go Play! was unstarred
    Image of Roklimber Roklimber
    12/08/09

    @Anekanta - killed by a cacodemon:

    I think Martian cow steak tastes like everything else, ie, just like chicken.
     Reply
    Roklimber was starred Roklimber was unstarred
    Image of Gann Gann
    12/08/09

    @Roklimber: Close, its buggalo.
     Reply
    Gann was starred Gann was unstarred
    Image of ManchuCandidate ManchuCandidate
    12/08/09

    @Gann:
    Ha.
     Reply
    ManchuCandidate was starred ManchuCandidate was unstarred
    Image of Roklimber Roklimber
    12/08/09

    @Gann: Semantics, semantics... :)
     Reply
    Roklimber was starred Roklimber was unstarred
    Image of lava lava
    12/08/09

    @Roklimber: oh yuh, saw them get dropped there on one of them firefly epee-soads
     Reply
    Roklimber promoted this comment lava was starred lava was unstarred
    Image of BullfightsOnAcid BullfightsOnAcid
    12/08/09

    In reply to The Evolutionary Cost of Being Extremely Sexy
    "Baby, you are so hot. You are fecund to none."
     Reply
    BullfightsOnAcid was starred BullfightsOnAcid was unstarred
    Image of Dash_Stryker Dash_Stryker
    12/08/09

    In reply to The Evolutionary Cost of Being Extremely Sexy
    that's why skinny girls stop menstrating!
     Reply
    Dash_Stryker was starred Dash_Stryker was unstarred
    Image of Hahaue Hahaue
    12/08/09

    @Dash_Stryker: "Nothing tastes as good as thin feels."
     Reply
    SJ_Edwards promoted this comment Hahaue was starred Hahaue was unstarred
    Image of Vulcan Has No Moon Vulcan Has No Moon
    12/08/09

    @Hahaue: Kate Moss must have gone her entire life without tasting Belgian chocolates.
     Reply
    Vulcan Has No Moon was starred Vulcan Has No Moon was unstarred
    Image of Bigdamnhero Bigdamnhero
    12/08/09

    In reply to Talk Monkey to Me: Monkey Language Contains Simple Sentences
    Also, the vocalization consisting of "zoom a zoom zoom" and "boom boom" has been shown to stimulate furious monkey rump shaking in many primate species.
     Reply
    Bigdamnhero was starred Bigdamnhero was unstarred
    Image of ManchuCandidate ManchuCandidate
    12/08/09

    In reply to The Evolutionary Cost of Being Extremely Sexy
    I'm too sexy for my genes too sexy for my genes
    Evolution's going to kill me

    I'm a hot female you know what I mean
    And I shake my big abs on the flyscape
    Yeah on the flyscape on the flyscape yeah
    I shake my big abs on the flyscape
     Reply
    ManchuCandidate was starred ManchuCandidate was unstarred
    Image of schrodingers-katana schrodingers-katana
    12/08/09

    @ManchuCandidate: A+
     Reply
    schrodingers-katana was starred schrodingers-katana was unstarred
    Image of Im_your_Huckleberry Im_your_Huckleberry
    12/08/09

    @ManchuCandidate: You're on a roll today +1
     Reply
    Im_your_Huckleberry was starred Im_your_Huckleberry was unstarred
    Image of tetracycloide tetracycloide
    12/08/09

    In reply to The Evolutionary Cost of Being Extremely Sexy
    the cover picture completely misses the point of the article. models and actresses like the one above are not fit. that girl is way too thin to be menstruating. we don't even exist on the same playing field as real animals, we select for extraordinary not fitness. when serfs worked long hours in the fields buff and tan were not in vogue, pale and fat were. now that everyone's pale and fat we're into thin and tan or tan and buff. for humanity it's always about wanting something different, fitness isn't even on the radar anymore.
     Reply
    tetracycloide was starred tetracycloide was unstarred
    Image of jer2110 jer2110
    12/08/09

    @tetracycloide: looks fit to me
     Reply
    tetracycloide promoted this comment jer2110 was starred jer2110 was unstarred
    Image of Blue_Thark Blue_Thark
    12/08/09

    @tetracycloide: Not to mention many human females are perfectly capable of "entertaining" large numbers of mates and still manage to feed themselves and go to the gym on a regular basis.

    Not that I would ever associate with such women. No, siree.
     Reply
    tetracycloide promoted this comment Blue_Thark was starred Blue_Thark was unstarred
    Image of drclaytonforrester drclaytonforrester
    12/08/09

    @tetracycloide: that girl is way too thin to be menstruating.

    Very true, the waist-hip ratio is very important. Always gets me noticing. A good waist-hip ratio is like pheromones ..

    for humanity it's always about wanting something different, fitness isn't even on the radar anymore.

    So true, could attraction to 'different' be nature's way of mixing up the gene pool? Actually what am I saying, it probably is.

    But fitness should be on the radar, and probably is.
     Reply
    tetracycloide promoted this comment drclaytonforrester was starred drclaytonforrester was unstarred
    Image of 1Grand_Marquis 1Grand_Marquis
    12/08/09

    @tetracycloide: Well that's only true for a very literal interpretation of "fitness" as specifically "objective physical health" (and in that case, the serfs still wouldn't be desirable simply because of all the horrible diseases they were carrying around). But pale and fat were also indications of wealth, which was the criteria for fitness at the time. Thin and tan in the 90s indicated a potential for popularity and the potential to rise in social standing via 'trophy wife', which were criteria for fitness then.

    We may have abandoned our instinctual criteria for fitness long ago, but that doesn't mean we're suddenly exempt.
     Reply
    tetracycloide promoted this comment 1Grand_Marquis was starred 1Grand_Marquis was unstarred
    Image of tetracycloide tetracycloide
    12/08/09

    @1Grand_Marquis: that's my point, really, that humanity has long since begun selecting for something other than physical health.
     Reply
    tetracycloide was starred tetracycloide was unstarred
    Image of Indigen Indigen
    12/08/09

    @tetracycloide: Worse than that; in the world we've built for ourselves, there ARE no beneficial traits. Historically, you'd have to acknowledge large, strong, intelligent, healthy or any combination thereof men and women are the way to go, but today those traits are either negligible or a liability. So far are we from any natural struggle, evolution has ceased to have any meaning, purpose or direction. This is our burden as the thinking species. We can champion the morality of selection and choice right into our confused, decrepit racial grave, while every other species is unencumbered by thought and driven by biological impulse into adaptation - if we don't wipe them out.

    This incidentally is why I have no problem with any future widespread genetic manipulation. Even if it is privileged to f.ex wealthy, white Westerners, at least it's throwing some progress out there to disseminate.
     Reply
    tetracycloide promoted this comment Indigen was starred Indigen was unstarred
    Image of tetracycloide tetracycloide
    12/08/09

    @Indigen: the problem with widespread genetic manipulation is that, when human being choose the traits to select for directly, it really isn't any better, objectively, from the mess we have already. how would one choose which traits to select for? how would one balance this selection with a need to preserve genetic diversity?
     Reply
    tetracycloide was starred tetracycloide was unstarred
    Image of ErrantConstruct ErrantConstruct
    12/08/09

    @tetracycloide: Simple, we wouldn't select for genetic diversity. As genetic manipulation became a viable option, everyone would want to look like the cultural ideal. Although, as it spread throughout society, we would undoubtedly find some other set of traits to see as the ideal. We probably wouldn't value looks as much since they could be changed easily.
     Reply
    SJ_Edwards promoted this comment ErrantConstruct was starred ErrantConstruct was unstarred
    Image of tetracycloide tetracycloide
    12/08/09

    @ErrantConstruct: but what traits do we choose? how do we know we won't need the traits we're breeding out 100 years after they're gone? over specialize and you breed in weakness.
     Reply
    Edited by tetracycloide at 12/08/09 4:18 PM tetracycloide was starred tetracycloide was unstarred
    Image of ErrantConstruct ErrantConstruct
    12/09/09

    @tetracycloide: Oh that's a definite problem, but I don't think we'll be forward thinking enough to avoid the temptation of having big breasts/penis, slender body/huge muscles, and blond hair. Or insert whatever physical traits people are willing to mutilate themselves for. Once it becomes easy to have cosmetic changes done to your body, it will spread like wild fire.
     Reply
    ErrantConstruct was starred ErrantConstruct was unstarred
    Image of Roklimber Roklimber
    12/08/09

    In reply to The Evolutionary Cost of Being Extremely Sexy
    "As a result, the most-desired females become far less capable of generating healthy offspring. And the smaller, less fit females wind up bearing as many offspring as the fitter ones. In the end, the males' aggressive mating with the fittest females ends up preventing their species from evolving into a much fitter group.

    Tristan A. F. Long, one of the authors of the study, said:

    [...] there may be negative consequences to the species' ability to adaptively evolve."

    I am not a professional biologist, but I believe I understand enough of evolutionary biology to find the statements above not to be entirely correct.

    As I understand, one of the most important requirements for a gene pool to produce individuals that adapt easily to changes in their environment is genetic diversity.

    And that's exactly what the fruitfly male behavior achieves. By harassing the bigger and more fecund females, giving a chance to the lesser fit fenales to mate equally as frequently or to produce as many offsprings as the better fit females, the males are guaranteeing an influx of diversity in the population gene pool.
     Reply
    Edited by Roklimber at 12/08/09 12:08 PM Roklimber was starred Roklimber was unstarred
    Image of Annalee Newitz Annalee Newitz
    12/08/09

    @Roklimber: No, it means that the fit females actually reproduce less, so any good traits they have won't spread through the population quickly. You can read the paper - I linked to it.
     Reply
    Annalee Newitz was starred Annalee Newitz was unstarred
    Image of crashfrog crashfrog
    12/08/09

    @Annalee Newitz: I'm pretty sure you're both saying the same thing - a sexual pressure against otherwise fit mates prevents good traits from spreading quickly, thus preventing rapid gene fixation at those loci, thus preserving genetic diversity.

    Also the evolutionary cost of male mate preference would seem to prevent sexual selection driving highly maladaptive traits (like peacock feathers.)
     Reply
    Roklimber promoted this comment crashfrog was starred crashfrog was unstarred
    Image of Roklimber Roklimber
    12/08/09

    @Annalee Newitz:

    "any good traits they have won't spread through the population quickly"

    True, but consider the alternative. If the males predominantly mated with the fitter females, the genetic pool would fairly quickly be "locked-in" with the traits that are beneficial to the current environment. If a significant change were to happen, the entire species would be ill-prepared to deal with it.

    A better strategy is to compromise, ie, to forgo consistently fit individuals in favor of individuals that are more diverse, thereby guaranteeing the survival of the species under a variety of environmental changes.

    Having said all that, I'll reiterate that I'm no expert and may be completely wrong. Also, I have not yet read the linked article. I'm kinda busy at the moment, so I'm flying solo on this one.
     Reply
    Roklimber was starred Roklimber was unstarred
    Image of Annalee Newitz Annalee Newitz
    12/08/09

    @Roklimber: I agree with you - more diversity in my sex partners, I say!
     Reply
    Annalee Newitz was starred Annalee Newitz was unstarred
    Image of Roklimber Roklimber
    12/08/09

    @Annalee Newitz:

    LOL! Same here.

    "A better strategy is to compromise, ie, to forgo consistently fit individuals in favor of individuals that are more diverse"

    If only danish women subscribed to the same strategy, 'cause I'm not exactly the fittest male around here (or anywhere else, for that matter).
     Reply
    Roklimber was starred Roklimber was unstarred
    Image of Kitradu Kitradu
    12/08/09

    In reply to The Evolutionary Cost of Being Extremely Sexy
    Send in the Bene Gesserit, they'll whip that genetic hierarchy into shape. Until they get to the FlyTrap HatAttack...then they'll be all "woe is me, I messed up evolution."
     Reply
    Annalee Newitz promoted this comment Kitradu was starred Kitradu was unstarred
    Image of bitgod bitgod
    12/08/09

    In reply to The Evolutionary Cost of Being Extremely Sexy
    Interesting info. I wonder if I can kill someone by rubbing a male fruitfly on them. *sigh* I suppose it's only toxic to other fruitflys.
     Reply
    bitgod was starred bitgod was unstarred
    Image of crashedpc - Haifisch crashedpc - Haifisch
    12/08/09

    In reply to The Evolutionary Cost of Being Extremely Sexy
    Well, shit. I've been doing this all wrong. *puts away diamonds and takes out PB&J*
     Reply
    crashedpc - Haifisch was starred crashedpc - Haifisch was unstarred
    Image of Kitradu Kitradu
    12/08/09

    @crashedpc - Haifisch: Dammit if you steal my g/f I will hunt you down and shake your hand.
     Reply
    tetracycloide promoted this comment Kitradu was starred Kitradu was unstarred
    Image of Im_your_Huckleberry Im_your_Huckleberry
    12/08/09

    @crashedpc - Haifisch: +1
     Reply
    Im_your_Huckleberry was starred Im_your_Huckleberry was unstarred
    Image of tetracycloide tetracycloide
    12/08/09

    @Kitradu: might want to make sure he wipes of the peanut butter first.
     Reply
    tetracycloide was starred tetracycloide was unstarred
    Image of J_Frank_Parnell J_Frank_Parnell
    12/08/09

    In reply to Talk Monkey to Me: Monkey Language Contains Simple Sentences
    'Man can be domesticated.'

    Rock me Dr. Zaius.
     Reply
    J_Frank_Parnell was starred J_Frank_Parnell was unstarred
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