I especially agree with the Starbuck thing. That was the only part of the finale that really bothered me. I can even accept that she's some kind of angel or whatever, but it just completely rendered pointless the whole "what am I" struggle she had going and the finding of her dead body on the bad earth. If she was a divine being, wouldn't she know what she was? And why did she take them to the wrong place the first time?
Oh, and speaking of the "bad earth," I take it back. That was another thing that bothered me. So there are two basically identical earths out there, one of which was home to a race of cylons and was nuked and the other perfect and untouched? That's something I can't come up with an explanation for at all.
@DarthAthema: The two Earths aren't identical. We were never given a clear look at the "bad Earth" outside of one exterior shot that sort of looked like the Brooklyn Bridge or some location in Vancouver. In BSG, "bad Earth" is another planet with ocean, but we never saw anything as definable as Africa on it.
From what, I can tell, they aren't identical.
Also, I think the "Harbinger of Death" label makes sense if it applies to Cavil's Cylons. Once Starbuck and company showed up, everyone on that colony was doomed.
Or maybe "Harbinger of Death" means that she was a dead person walking amongst the living. Either way, I think the label fits. It's frustrating that the writers didn't explain exactly how, but I think it makes sense.
What's up with all of the religion bashing on this site in the past month? I can't even read a Lost review without seeing some form of "ugh...religion". Did someone at io9 get into a bar fight with a priest, rabbi and a shaman?
I'm just going to assume that this is all brought about by BSG's ending and will die down soon. Here's hoping that the site doesn't become as negative as Kotaku where they have to take a jab or two at things they don't like whenever possible.
@gods-n-clods: Wow thanks! (This isn't sarcasm, right? Okay, good.) I've never actually taught writing, although I've taught ESL. Anyway, one day it would definitely be fun to take some of our io9 essays and make them a bit less throwaway, for some kind of collection. A hundred people would probably keep it next to their toilets for up to a week!
I find it funny how people are so willing to debate the pros and cons of religion, but when it comes to questioning technology almost everyone has a knee-jerk reaction. Adherence to technology and "progress" is more of a religion than anything else, and most likely to destroy us.
And don't even come at me with an ad hominem attack because I am posting on a blog.
I may well have a knee jerk reaction if you question the value of the polio vaccine, but will be quite happy to debate whether or not the world really needed George Foreman's grill, or the A bomb, or asbestos.
And sorry but nothing is more of a religion than religion, surely?
and your point is that technology created the problem of polio in the first place?
how about pasteurization? or GM wheat? or the cotton gin?
There are technological developments that are unambiguously and measurably good for humanity. We can see that from rising life expectancy, and standards of living.
I would add the "chariot of the gods" storyline, too, which is a variation on the Cargo Cult story. Basically: aliens arrive on Earth and either build or teach humans how to build big stone things (usually pyramids). It's been done many times, and it always struck me as modern people being unable to believe that primitive, usually non-Western peoples were capable of achieving anything of note, despite the massive physical evidence to the contrary.
The New-Agey stuff bothers me not because crystals are any more ridiculous than any other beliefs, but because it usually involves poorly researched and stereotypical depictions of other people's religions. You can't just pick up the cliff notes version of a religion and understand it well enough to use its themes in fiction. And anything with a wise old mystic who is a member of a 'primitive' tribe who are 'closer to nature' than we modern whiteys is going to be embarrassingly bad.
@rufustfyrfly: To be fair, the Japanese do that (the Cliff Notes thing, or just the external symbols in fiction) with Christianity, so it's not just whitey Americans that do that.
"As anybody who's spent any time in the real world knows, religion and science mostly coexist reasonably well, unless you're Amish or Richard Dawkins. But in some especially cheesy science fiction, every day is Galileo-vs.-the-church day."
My biggest issue with the BSG religious ending was that they answered a question that was never meant to be answered. The beauty of religion in BSG was the variety - Admiral Atheist, the vision-following president, the slavishly devoted and polytheistic Sagittarons, the monotheistic Cylons, Starbuck, who only called on the gods when she was in trouble, the Cult of Baltar - it was completely across the board. So we got to see how all of these different beliefs motivated and influenced all of these people - how their faith illuminated their action. And then...somebody was right? I never wanted a definitive answer. The intrigue was in watching what the different religions wrought, not wondering if one of them was actually true.
Although I will admit, it was sort of clever that Chip Six was telling the straight-up truth from the very beginning. But not clever enough.
I think it's ironic that the fan-created "Daniel" theory might have been a much more satisfying end to the Starbuck arc than what the writers came up with, I have to wonder if when he was experiencing the "Cult of Daniel" phenomenon he decried, if RDM thought at any point, "I wonder if it's too late to do some last minute reshoots."
"As anybody who's spent any time in the real world knows, religion and science mostly coexist reasonably well, unless you're Amish or Richard Dawkins."
That statement is so utterly, demonstrably wrong I dont know where to begin...
Oh, I know... how about the pope and his issue with condoms?
@BigFatPussyCat: Also, I don't think the Amish are philosophically anti-science. There's just some technologies they choose not to own individually and use daily.
The pope/condom thing is one, so is the previous administration's ban on funding stem cell research, so is the earlier-post-mentioned Terry Schiavo.
@BigFatPussyCat: What's your problem with that? The pope's job isn't to combat STDs. His primary job is as spiritual caretaker of his church, and if that's the decision the church comes to, then up until the point where a Papal Council decides to change that regulation, it's the Pope's duty to uphold it.
I'm not exactly sure what you think the Pope's job is, but it's certainly not Surgeon-General of the world.
my criticism of the pope was not that he wasn't living up to his job description.
By upholding and through his office trying to enforce abstinence as the sole means of preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS the Pope is disregarding Science (spread of HIV, the role of contraceptives) and aggravating an already awful situation.
And sorry we're not talking a mild case of the crabs or even HC here, as your glib reference to "combating STDs" seems to suggest.
If you doubt the veracity of the role of contraception in preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS, unless you can prove that condoms actually increase the chance of transmission we can safely disregard your doubts.
If you don't think that AIDS in Africa ia a big deal... well that would leave me speechless. ( And you do know its a continent and not a country right? Dont worry even VP candidates can make that mistake)
So ultimatley I think its you who needs some maturing.
@BigFatPussyCat: Christ almighty you're pompous. When did I ever say ANY part of what you're trying to "rebut". It's always nice when someone just sort of makes shit up and then answers it themselves.
He's not disregarding science itself, you dope. Of course that's how AIDS is spread. But birth control is a sin according to the organization of which is he the head, so he has to tell people that. Story over. His job isn't to concern himself with the spread of AIDS.
I mean, the church sponsors abstinence education in places like Africa, but they know it doesn't work. It's just the best they can do given the rules of their society right now.
I for one would love to see more day to day depictions of religion in science fiction.
Two very different examples come to mind: Ivanova sitting Shiva after the death of her father in Babylon 5, and the war in Starship Troopers being started by an attack on a Mormon outpost.
It's possible to include religion in a science fiction story without the story being ABOUT religion. And this should be encouraged.
@Aler: The Babylon 5 episode where some alien wanted to meet the human spiritual leader and they lined up a priest, a rabbi, a Buddhist monk, an imam, a whole long line of people...
For being written by a total atheist, B5 was extremely respectful to all religions.
I always liked the way Babylon 5 dealt with it - aspects of many worlds' religions were based on near-omnipotent aliens rather than "gods" and they ended up taking them on. It veered close to silliness on occasion, but it managed to both avoid religion-bashing and being too pro-god(s) at the same time.
@Discodave: Yeah, everyone saw the Vorlons as different divine beings -- humans saw angels/glowy humans with wings, other races saw their equivalent, in their shape.
It didn't say "You're all wrong, you mistook the aliens for gods/demons", but showed that everyone's religion had been influenced by contact with these aliens.
RDM: ...I wanted to say that I really wasn't trying to make some grand anti-technological statement at the end of BSG. Far from holding Luddite tendencies, I'm actually quite taken by techno-whiz-bang and tend to stop in stores and stare at all kinds of devices that go ping. The end of Galactica's story had to do with human choices, human ethics, and the human heart. The conversation between Head Six and Head Baltar was a discussion of what mankind would choose to do this time through the cycle of time that had repeated itself several times already -- that is, would they follow a similar path of destruction, escape, rebirth, etc. There's nothing in the scene to imply that technology is, in and of itself, an evil or pernicious force in our world or any world, rather that man's relationship with his own technology had led to ruin because of the choices and decisions made once that technology reached a certain advanced state of affairs.
I should also add that there's a part of me that is loath to really analyze my own work on this level because like any piece of art it can be interpreted in various ways by the audience and not necessarily have any relationship to the intent of the artist.
Really interesting article, and for the most part I'm with you. Not sure I agree about Native American visionquests or indigenous spirituality--I guess I mean that while they may usually take a cheesetastic (I'm looking at you Star Trek: Voyager) or subtly racist form, surely they can be done properly, too.
A question for all you io9'ers, assuming indigenous spirituality can be done properly in SF, what would it look like?
@Anekanta: I prefer stories with the idea of overlaying a religious trappings on top of advanced technology and psychology. C. S. Friedman's this Alien Shore had an interesting society that used Inuit animisim to categorize/explain people with psychiatric "disorders" to produce high-functioning but extremely specialized experts in varied fields. A bit like the godspoken of Path from Xenocide or PKD's Clans of the Alphane Moon.
Make crazy people useful!
I haven't read it in a long time but I recall Greg Bear using Voudoun/Santeria in an interesting way in Queen of Angel. Gotta get a new copy of that...
Hate, hate, hate stories where gods are discovered to be "real" or aliens, AI whatever. Especially when there's the whole fawning over the Otherness (to borrow David Brin's term). Some people get all woo-woo with non-Western spirituality, "well it ain't like the Church my parents dragged me to, so it must be better!"
I assume you are or have an affinity for Buddhism. You have probably seen the knee-jerk reactions I'm talking about. What I recall from my time in temple with my grandmother, her Buddhist worship looked a heckuva lot like hard-core Catholicism. Less guilt and different incense but a whole lot of dogma. Of course her sect was more of the devotional chanting and idols type rather than contemplative variety like those Zen guys.
03/27/09
03/27/09
Oh, and speaking of the "bad earth," I take it back. That was another thing that bothered me. So there are two basically identical earths out there, one of which was home to a race of cylons and was nuked and the other perfect and untouched? That's something I can't come up with an explanation for at all.
03/27/09
From what, I can tell, they aren't identical.
Also, I think the "Harbinger of Death" label makes sense if it applies to Cavil's Cylons. Once Starbuck and company showed up, everyone on that colony was doomed.
Or maybe "Harbinger of Death" means that she was a dead person walking amongst the living. Either way, I think the label fits. It's frustrating that the writers didn't explain exactly how, but I think it makes sense.
03/27/09
03/27/09
I'm just going to assume that this is all brought about by BSG's ending and will die down soon. Here's hoping that the site doesn't become as negative as Kotaku where they have to take a jab or two at things they don't like whenever possible.
03/26/09
When are you going to compile these articles and publish a book on how to write sci-fi?
You teach a class or somethin'?
03/27/09
03/26/09
And don't even come at me with an ad hominem attack because I am posting on a blog.
03/27/09
I may well have a knee jerk reaction if you question the value of the polio vaccine, but will be quite happy to debate whether or not the world really needed George Foreman's grill, or the A bomb, or asbestos.
And sorry but nothing is more of a religion than religion, surely?
cheers!
03/27/09
03/27/09
and your point is that technology created the problem of polio in the first place?
how about pasteurization? or GM wheat? or the cotton gin?
There are technological developments that are unambiguously and measurably good for humanity. We can see that from rising life expectancy, and standards of living.
And then there's baconaisse...
03/27/09
GM wheat? Are you kidding?
Pasterurization led to the extreme overuse of dairy in our society, with effects to our health and planet.
Technology has led to rampant overpopulation, from which epidemics such as polio emerge.
03/27/09
Personally, I'm pretty keen on penicillin. It's been overused, but I wouldn't be here without it.
Aseptic surgery and anesthetics. Nowadays appendicitis is a minor inconvenience instead of a slow painful death.
03/26/09
The New-Agey stuff bothers me not because crystals are any more ridiculous than any other beliefs, but because it usually involves poorly researched and stereotypical depictions of other people's religions. You can't just pick up the cliff notes version of a religion and understand it well enough to use its themes in fiction. And anything with a wise old mystic who is a member of a 'primitive' tribe who are 'closer to nature' than we modern whiteys is going to be embarrassingly bad.
03/26/09
03/26/09
Best two sentences of the day, hands down.
03/26/09
Although I will admit, it was sort of clever that Chip Six was telling the straight-up truth from the very beginning. But not clever enough.
03/26/09
'What does God need with a starship?"
There... now I feel better. Thank you.
03/26/09
03/26/09
03/26/09
03/26/09
That statement is so utterly, demonstrably wrong I dont know where to begin...
Oh, I know... how about the pope and his issue with condoms?
03/26/09
The pope/condom thing is one, so is the previous administration's ban on funding stem cell research, so is the earlier-post-mentioned Terry Schiavo.
03/26/09
I'm not exactly sure what you think the Pope's job is, but it's certainly not Surgeon-General of the world.
So why don't you grow up a little?
03/26/09
my criticism of the pope was not that he wasn't living up to his job description.
By upholding and through his office trying to enforce abstinence as the sole means of preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS the Pope is disregarding Science (spread of HIV, the role of contraceptives) and aggravating an already awful situation.
And sorry we're not talking a mild case of the crabs or even HC here, as your glib reference to "combating STDs" seems to suggest.
If you doubt the veracity of the role of contraception in preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS, unless you can prove that condoms actually increase the chance of transmission we can safely disregard your doubts.
If you don't think that AIDS in Africa ia a big deal... well that would leave me speechless. ( And you do know its a continent and not a country right? Dont worry even VP candidates can make that mistake)
So ultimatley I think its you who needs some maturing.
03/27/09
He's not disregarding science itself, you dope. Of course that's how AIDS is spread. But birth control is a sin according to the organization of which is he the head, so he has to tell people that. Story over. His job isn't to concern himself with the spread of AIDS.
I mean, the church sponsors abstinence education in places like Africa, but they know it doesn't work. It's just the best they can do given the rules of their society right now.
03/26/09
Two very different examples come to mind: Ivanova sitting Shiva after the death of her father in Babylon 5, and the war in Starship Troopers being started by an attack on a Mormon outpost.
It's possible to include religion in a science fiction story without the story being ABOUT religion. And this should be encouraged.
03/26/09
For being written by a total atheist, B5 was extremely respectful to all religions.
03/26/09
03/26/09
03/26/09
03/26/09
It didn't say "You're all wrong, you mistook the aliens for gods/demons", but showed that everyone's religion had been influenced by contact with these aliens.
03/26/09
I should also add that there's a part of me that is loath to really analyze my own work on this level because like any piece of art it can be interpreted in various ways by the audience and not necessarily have any relationship to the intent of the artist.
In other words, your mileage may vary.
[[forums.scifi.com]]
03/26/09
03/26/09
A question for all you io9'ers, assuming indigenous spirituality can be done properly in SF, what would it look like?
03/26/09
Make crazy people useful!
I haven't read it in a long time but I recall Greg Bear using Voudoun/Santeria in an interesting way in Queen of Angel. Gotta get a new copy of that...
Hate, hate, hate stories where gods are discovered to be "real" or aliens, AI whatever. Especially when there's the whole fawning over the Otherness (to borrow David Brin's term). Some people get all woo-woo with non-Western spirituality, "well it ain't like the Church my parents dragged me to, so it must be better!"
I assume you are or have an affinity for Buddhism. You have probably seen the knee-jerk reactions I'm talking about. What I recall from my time in temple with my grandmother, her Buddhist worship looked a heckuva lot like hard-core Catholicism. Less guilt and different incense but a whole lot of dogma. Of course her sect was more of the devotional chanting and idols type rather than contemplative variety like those Zen guys.