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How 9/11 Changed Watchmen
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happymisanthrope
02/27/09

In reply to How 9/11 Changed Watchmen
Why are we wasting time in hearsay? We haven't seen the film in question and can't judge whether or not the decisions of the filmmakers to take out a scene or alter an image or plot line is going to effect the film. The qualities we should be worried about are whether or not the sequence works. Maybe someone noticed that showing the carnage at the end changed the vibe for the movie, and not in a reverential way but to something almost silly or worse voyeuristic.
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MillicentNemesis
02/27/09

In reply to How 9/11 Changed Watchmen
It's been almost 8 years! Give people a little credit...granted it was tragic but frankly far worse has happened and even since then. What continues in Iraq has caused greater damage but that doesn't dillute the insensitivity towards casualties or denegration of Muslims in war/terrorism films. This is an artistic cop out.
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Pessimippopotamus
02/27/09

@MillicentNemesis: Wow.
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strider_mt2k
02/27/09

In reply to How 9/11 Changed Watchmen
So what exactly aren't we being shown because of Pearl Harbor and every other attack on anything?

WTF people?

Just let me see everything. If I can't handle it and go insane, you know what?

That's how life goes. Consider it evolution in action.
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twDarkflame
02/27/09

In reply to How 9/11 Changed Watchmen
This is nothing to do with 9/11, its just a cheap excuse.
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Pessimippopotamus
02/27/09

@twDarkflame: I'll agree to that.
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DaoKaioshin
02/26/09

In reply to How 9/11 Changed Watchmen
and here i was, thinking that the squid was removed because the vignettes that explained it wouldn't fit in a feature-length film. it'd be hard for such an expensive film to recoup its cost if the public response is a collossal 'huh?'
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happymisanthrope
02/27/09

@DaoKaioshin: shhh... see that makes too much sense, and you're recognizing that film is going to have to be different than a comic book.
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billypilgrim
02/26/09

In reply to How 9/11 Changed Watchmen
Whether you think it was Hayder's corporate schilling or not is, I think, beside the point. When addressing admittedly subjects such as those taken on by both the movie and its source material, it's worth asking when artistic imagery/metaphor is legit and when it becomes simply poor taste and/or pandering for shock value.
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happymisanthrope
02/27/09

@billypilgrim: You said what I was thinking with far more eloquence. nice job.
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lightninglouie
02/26/09

In reply to How 9/11 Changed Watchmen
Alright, I can handle no squid, I can handle no bodies, but I'm gonna be super-pissed if "Tandoori to go" isn't in the movie.

Mmmn, tandoori...
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Grey_Area
02/26/09

@lightninglouie: I'm so with you there. Maybe it'll be a neutron bomb; vaporise the people but leave the buildings standing...I have to agree that line from Laurie is so immensely heartfelt and poignant. It has to stay in some form:

"Tandoori to go. that's all they went out for, these people...

Tandoori to go."

Wow. it so works. Screw the special effects or the genengineered Squid, a line like that brings it all home and makes so much more real. More Human.
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Plague
02/26/09

In reply to How 9/11 Changed Watchmen
Sigh.

Guess I have to dig this chestnut out again.

Jesus, you people are babies. This ending doesn't even FIT anymore without the squid.

You honestly believe a studio putting up a huge amount of money is going to allow these images? There is no such thing as a "compromise" to get something worthwhile in toto done in your eyes, is there?

Freakin' saddens me.
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mattjumbo
02/27/09

@Plague:

The *ending* of a movie is not the part you choose to compromise to get something worthwhile done. It is the resolution of everything you've been working for in the telling of the story in the first place.

If you don't have that, you don't have anything.
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Plague
02/27/09

@mattjumbo:

Oh, bullshit.

How you GET to the ending is what is worthwhile. And if the ending is fundamentally the same, you haven't lost anything.

If you think the vaporization of millions is somehow less affecting that showing piles of bodies, then you are a helpless, nitpicking fanboy and there is no reasoning with you.

Hope your absolutism gets you through the day.
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AngryLagomorph
02/26/09

In reply to How 9/11 Changed Watchmen
My question is how exactly does Ozymandias convince the world that its an extra dimensional attack, thus averting nuclear armageddon between the US and USSR, if the attack on New York looks a nuclear or neutron bomb? Taking out the Squid does more than just squeeze around the violence in New York issue (and yes, I agree its silly and condescending to think that adults need to be babied like this), it significantly alters Ozymandias' plan. Without the body to dissect, how exactly is he going to paint this as a "psychic Hiroshima" sent by a malevolent alien power? And if doubt remains about the unearthly nature of the attack, then how does it accomplish his goal of uniting Earth and ending war?

I hope they didn't just ignore these questions and leave the last act mostly intact accept for this.
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goldfarb
02/26/09

@AngryLagomorph: spoiler warning

-

-

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from what I've read he reproduces Manhattan's 'energy signature' - and destroys a bunch of places, not just NY, so everyone thinks that it was done by Manhattan...and everyone comes together against the common threat...
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dry-roasted-peanuts
02/27/09

@goldfarb: Which totally ruins Veidt's plan. Manhattan is the VERY public face of US military might. Even with the mentality that he "became a god" or "transcended his bonds with humanity", he was still born an American and sold to the world as an American. Everyone can point a finger and say it's the USA's fault, they pushed him too hard, they made him do things that caused him to lose his humanity, him losing it is the ultimate unintentional consequence of US imperialism, etc. The blame and animosity still is from a source on Earth.

The whole point of Veidt's plan was to scare people into cooperating against an alien threat. To take all the back and forth political finger pointing on Earth and set up a situation where everyone on Earth is pointing their fingers in the same direction. Manhattan is not an alien, he's an American and America will be blamed. That's why in the comic the New Fronteirsman picking up Rorschach's journal is so ominous. If people suspect a human is responsible it destroys the unity. If Manhattan is thought to be responsible, does it really matter if people find out that Veidt did it?
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Sheryl Nantus
02/27/09

@dry-roasted-peanuts:

exactly - the USSR would probably launch strikes against the US if there was even a HINT that Manhattan was behind it, even if NYC was trashed along the way by Manhattan's temper tantrum.

the entire focus of US vs THEM, being Earth vs intelligent aliens, is what brings the countries together. Not everyone vs Manhattan.

this may very well be one of those movies you only see once and then buy on DVD so that you can skip the ending.

*if* this is what happens, then shame on you Hollywood - again, you miss the point. A big point.

Shame.

:(
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Pope John Peeps II
02/27/09

@dry-roasted-peanuts: But one of the VERY MAIN THEMES of the comic book is how divorced from humanity Manhattan actually is! Not only is he simply not human, but he's more and more godlike as the book goes on, more and more like some sort of Old Testament version of god - terrifying and sublime at the same time.

He's absolutely divorced from morality in the comic book at the end, and his helping humanity was a last fond effort before he leaves the whole solar system to go create new life.

I don't know how you can't see that thematically, this works and is actually pretty attuned with the old comic book.

Well, I know how you can't see it - because you don't want to, because you're mired in a sort of pompous "my view of everything is better than yours" nostalgia.
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Pope John Peeps II
02/27/09

@Sheryl Nantus: again, hon, you're the one who's missing the point. This isn't a plate-by-plate reprinting of THe Watchmen. This is an adaptation. And that's actually a pretty good way to sum things up.

Manhattan is not a human being. And he's probably the most terrifying thing on earth.
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dry-roasted-peanuts
02/27/09

@Pope John Peeps II: Oh, I see the story arc of Dr. Manhattan. Regardless of how much mentally and physically separated from his humanity Dr. Manhattan is, he still has 25 years of PR and actions showing him as an arm of the American government.

Veidt placing all the blame for the attacks on an American is stupid. Manhattan being publicly blamed might unite some people temporarily, but then they'll just remember that he was created because of a desire for US military supremacy. It doesn't fix a damn thing. The death is still the result of man and man will be blamed.

My problem isn't that Manhattan is blamed, but rather that him being blamed doesn't end war. All it would do is create more animosity towards the USA because they created the monster. It's not a problem of blind adherence to the source material, but rather a change to a well thought out idea being replaced with something that flat out doesn't work.
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Pessimippopotamus
02/27/09

@dry-roasted-peanuts: Exactly what I was thinking.
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Pope John Peeps II
02/27/09

@dry-roasted-peanuts: @Sheryl Nantus: Again, both of your points amount to whining that the story is not EXACTLY like the comic books and how DARE they do that. Instead of actually looking at the newly created plot points and seeing if they hold together in a reasonable way. Which they do. They even hold together when compared to the original comic book! If you weren't such fanboys you'd be able to see that.

Manhattan's whole deal is that he grows further and further away from America, ceasing to care about politics, about the country. The very reason the world is edging towards nuclear destruction IS PRECISELY BECAUSE Manhattan is ceasing to be human, and ceasing to care about the fate of the country, and his role as nuclear deterrent. The only reason he remains part of the army is because they leave him alone to work and he likes his girlfriend. So if it's that pronounced in the book, then obviously it can work in the movie.

Clearly the movie is going to explain how he distances himself from the American military, and clearly they're going to explain how the ending works.

So unless you have a better argument that "it's not the comic books", don't bother.
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Sal Muñoz
02/26/09

In reply to How 9/11 Changed Watchmen
call me what ever you want. i don't care.

but i'm sick of movies having to censor themselves because of 9/11.

get. over. it.

it could have been worse.
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Pessimippopotamus
02/27/09

@Sal Muñoz: @AngryLagomorph:

I don't feel anger, but rather fear from guys like you. I'd rather convince myself that you've worded your opinion wrong, but what you imply is just horrifying.

I might not agree with the studio and the screenwriter, but I would never be insensitive about a tragedy like this.

And calling it overblown mythology and propaganda? That is really beyond my comprehension. Do you really think that the Germans would just eventually let the whole WWII thing go? Or the Japanese just forget about the atomic bombings? They are as sensitive about it as if it were yesterday. Do you think that's propaganda as well, and they should just get over it?

What you've suggested is disgusting.
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Ghede
02/26/09

In reply to How 9/11 Changed Watchmen
" I think the consequences of violence should be shown graphically, just to show that violence is unpleasant."

This.

I don't blame Hayter, I don't blame Snyder, I don't even blame the executives, but I don't like it.
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steampoweredboy
02/26/09

In reply to How 9/11 Changed Watchmen
All the early leaks and reviews have been crowing about the "AWESOME" violence and how graphic Doctor Manhattan's vaporizing of criminals and viet cong is in the film.

So we can have the usual mind-numbing, repetitive carnage but actually showing the consequences of war, the cost of Ozymandius' "solution" rankles the nose?

Right.
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AngryLagomorph
02/26/09

@steampoweredboy: Well, those are criminals and foreigners. They aren't real people, right? Not like us.

Its disgusting, but such are the minds of studio execs.
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ultra_balexbot
02/26/09

@AngryLagomorph: it really does come down to that: you can't show masses of AMERICANS being slaughtered. we're all that really matters anyway and its our movie so :-P
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Islandkiwi
02/26/09

@ultra_balexbot: So you make it London, or Moscow, or...somewhere, but changing the event changes the entire story.
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Smeagol92055
02/26/09

In reply to How 9/11 Changed Watchmen
Oh, that is such a cop-out. No squid? Eh, I can live with it if the ending is done properly.

This is not the proper ending the story deserves.
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goldfarb
02/26/09

@Smeagol92055: Steve Martin's Script Notes for Passion of the Christ:

[www.moviecitynews.com]
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