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San Francisco, 10:12 PM
Thu Dec 10
26 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of Jonn Jonn
    06:32 PM

    In reply to What If Moviemakers Swapped Franchises?
    Cons: Abrams' inability to not have a happy ending

    I like how people complain Joss Whedon has to make his characters miserable, and completely the opposite about Abrams.

    Christopher Nolan's GI Joe
    [words]

    I detect some subtext. Some repressed dislike. I'm not sure what it is, but...
     Reply
    Jonn was starred Jonn was unstarred
    Image of Purple Dave Purple Dave
    12/06/09

    In reply to Why Harlan Ellison May Be A Good Thing For New Trek
    No, hells no, and damn hells no. The best thing he ever did for Babylon 5 was to act as an "advisor", which cleanly prevented him from actually contributing anything to the series.

    Then again, Abrams didn't exactly knock my socks off with Star Trek 90210, so what the heck do I care with what happens to it from here on out?
     Reply
    Purple Dave was starred Purple Dave was unstarred
    Image of Patient Patient
    12/06/09

    @Purple Dave: Oh come on now. After Enterprise we fans no longer where in control of the future of the series. Yes the new Trek was dumbed down, sexed up and mass marketed to those that do not have bookshelves riddled with TNG boxsets and DS9 action figures.

    However, at the same time there was a brief moment there when the series seemed doomed to continue on. If it took a Star Trek Degrassi high to reinvigorate the franchise and introduce the young ones to the series then really its hard to complain about it no?

    The alternative? No Trek at all.

    You are right on about Harlan by the way.
     Reply
    Patient was starred Patient was unstarred
    Image of Purple Dave Purple Dave
    12/06/09

    @Patient:
    Babylon 5, Star Wars, Futurama, Stargate, and then Star Trek. I would have been fine with Enterprise being the closing chapter on Star Trek, though I think putting the two least interesting characters from TNG in the final shot was a pretty crap decision.
     Reply
    Purple Dave was starred Purple Dave was unstarred
    Image of Bootknife-Jackson Bootknife-Jackson
    12/05/09

    In reply to Why Harlan Ellison May Be A Good Thing For New Trek
    i'm for it! that just might be a very smart move. the only reason i can see it not happening, is that they already have their own close knit team. and that usually trumps any sense of good reason in that town
     Reply
    Bootknife-Jackson was starred Bootknife-Jackson was unstarred
    Image of Golem100 Golem100
    12/05/09

    In reply to Why Harlan Ellison May Be A Good Thing For New Trek
    My prediction is that if this collaboration happens we'll see "Cordwainer Bird" in the the credits.
     Reply
    Golem100 was starred Golem100 was unstarred
    Image of foolish-rain foolish-rain
    12/07/09

    @Golem100: Yet another reason to hate Ellison: his trampling of the immortal great P.M.A.Linebarger's memory.

    Besides, I find that "City on the Edge" does not really fit into the tone and texture of TOS. It's a great story and very dramatic, but really discordant with the series as a whole.

    I'd rather give someone like Chabon a shot at the next script.
     Reply
    foolish-rain was starred foolish-rain was unstarred
    Image of The Curse of Millhaven The Curse of Millhaven
    12/05/09

    In reply to Why Harlan Ellison May Be A Good Thing For New Trek
    I like my Trek light, fun and a bit campy these days. If anyone were brought in, I'd like John Hodgman. Especially if he worked in the Hobos.
     Reply
    Edited by The Curse of Millhaven at 12/05/09 4:03 PM The Curse of Millhaven was starred The Curse of Millhaven was unstarred
    Image of Bill-Lee Bill-Lee
    12/05/09

    In reply to Why Harlan Ellison May Be A Good Thing For New Trek
    Film, theater, and TV are collaborative mediums. No script is ever produced in the same manner as it was written but is subject to input from directors, producers, and actors. The problem I have with Ellison is that he thinks that these rules don't apply to him. Every writer who submits a script to a TV show does so with the understanding that the producers will likely rework it so that it fits in their vision of the show. Not so the great Harlan Ellison! He is apparently above such collaborative effort or re-writes. He's built an entire new career out of griping about his involvement with Star Trek. First he was made about the re-writes to "City on the Edge of Forever", so mad that he almost disowned it altogether. He even published a book to prove how awesome his script was. Now he's mad that he didn't get as many royalty payments as he thinks he's entitled to. Now he thinks he should a chance to work on the next movie simply because he is the great Harlan Ellison!
     Reply
    Bill-Lee was starred Bill-Lee was unstarred
    Image of Byronotron Byronotron
    12/05/09

    @Bill-Lee: I have that book, and, hilarious as it is, it does more to paint Ellison as a control freak than to to win some praise for his original script. Mind you it also tears Roddenberry and Shatner three new assholes, which I've always been in favor of, despite my Star Trek obsession.
     Reply
    Byronotron was starred Byronotron was unstarred
    Image of NerD: Blattella NerD: Blattella
    12/05/09

    @Bill-Lee: To be fair, Harlan Ellison is also responsible, and is recognized for his contributions to the Terminator franchise.

    I also loved Angry Candy.

    I'd like to see if 30 years has added some gravitas to his work.
     Reply
    NerD: Blattella was starred NerD: Blattella was unstarred
    Image of Bill-Lee Bill-Lee
    12/05/09

    @NerD: Blattella: I kind of wish James Cameron would have kept his mouth shut about the connection between "Demon with a Glass Hand" and "The Terminator".
     Reply
    Bill-Lee was starred Bill-Lee was unstarred
    Image of NerD: Blattella NerD: Blattella
    12/05/09

    @Bill-Lee: OH its not just that one.

    The Terminator's timeline of
    Cyberdine's AI destroying the world is ripped right from "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream"
     Reply
    NerD: Blattella was starred NerD: Blattella was unstarred
    Image of Bill-Lee Bill-Lee
    12/05/09

    @NerD: Blattella: Really? The two cited works are usually the fore mentioned "Demon..." and "Soldier". Now I want to read "I Have No Mouth..."
     Reply
    Bill-Lee was starred Bill-Lee was unstarred
    Image of NerD: Blattella NerD: Blattella
    12/05/09

    @Bill-Lee: It's awesome, there is a line in there about hate that only a programmer could love.

    I wont spoil it for you.
     Reply
    NerD: Blattella was starred NerD: Blattella was unstarred
    Image of Torley Torley
    12/05/09

    In reply to Why Harlan Ellison May Be A Good Thing For New Trek
    I wasn't aware Harlan was such a Abrams fan! That's a lot of enthusiasm.

    Harlan's one of the few writers who also narrates his work with punchy quality: if you've played the IHNMAIMS computer game, his depiction of A.M. is saliciously lurid. I would enjoy him seeing him, even briefly, as a walk-on character in upcoming Trek.
     Reply
    Torley was starred Torley was unstarred
    Image of Pants McCracky Pants McCracky
    12/05/09

    In reply to Why Harlan Ellison May Be A Good Thing For New Trek
    Sorry, but it ain't gonna happen. Just paying the army of lawyers it would take to come up with a contract ironclad enough to prevent Ellison from suing would double the film's budget.
     Reply
    Pants McCracky was starred Pants McCracky was unstarred
    Image of Rocketknight Rocketknight
    12/05/09

    In reply to Why Harlan Ellison May Be A Good Thing For New Trek
    I... don't know how I feel about this.

    The only exposure I have to Ellison is "Repent, Harlequin!" said the Ticktockman and "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream", the latter being a HG101 look at the adventure game it was based on.

    His writing is pretty good, but I don't know how well he'd handle Star Trek. Maybe I'll take a look at that episode and see if it clears my doubt.
     Reply
    Rocketknight was starred Rocketknight was unstarred
    Image of FrankenPC FrankenPC
    12/05/09

    In reply to Why Harlan Ellison May Be A Good Thing For New Trek
    Ellison + JJ Abrams = JOY!
     Reply
    FrankenPC was starred FrankenPC was unstarred
    Image of lightninglouie lightninglouie
    12/05/09

    In reply to Why Harlan Ellison May Be A Good Thing For New Trek
    This would work only if Simon Pegg's Scotty could deal illegal drugs, just like in Ellison's original "City" screenplay.
     Reply
    lightninglouie was starred lightninglouie was unstarred
    Image of bigswingdaddy bigswingdaddy
    12/05/09

    @lightninglouie: Read the script. Scotty NEVER dealt drugs. That was a vile calumny spread by Roddenberry
     Reply
    cletar promoted this comment bigswingdaddy was starred bigswingdaddy was unstarred
    Image of Bill-Lee Bill-Lee
    12/05/09

    @lightninglouie: That was urban legend based on Gene Roddenberry's own faulty memory of the script. Ellison had a generic crew member dealing drugs.
     Reply
    Bill-Lee was starred Bill-Lee was unstarred
    Image of cletar cletar
    12/05/09

    @bigswingdaddy: I award you ten internet points for using the word "calumny," plus five additional points for modifying "calumny" with "vile."
     Reply
    cletar was starred cletar was unstarred
    Image of cletar cletar
    12/05/09

    In reply to Why Harlan Ellison May Be A Good Thing For New Trek
    I would be for this, if only because a teaser trailer that showed The Guardian of Forever would make me wet my pants.
     Reply
    cletar was starred cletar was unstarred
    Image of HalOfBorg HalOfBorg
    12/05/09

    @cletar: Do you watch New Voyages / Phase II?
     Reply
    cletar promoted this comment HalOfBorg was starred HalOfBorg was unstarred
    Image of cletar cletar
    12/05/09

    @HalOfBorg: I saw that, and it wasn't bad.
     Reply
    cletar was starred cletar was unstarred
    Image of HalOfBorg HalOfBorg
    12/05/09

    @cletar:I you like the Guardian of Forever, check out "In Harm's Way"
    [www.startreknewvoyages.com]

    Here is the opening. I love it.
     Reply
    HalOfBorg was starred HalOfBorg was unstarred
    Image of Lassus Lassus
    12/05/09

    In reply to Why Harlan Ellison May Be A Good Thing For New Trek
    Maybe Ellison and Alan Moore can team up for this endeavor.
     Reply
    Lassus was starred Lassus was unstarred
    Image of Jesse Astle Jesse Astle
    12/05/09

    @Lassus: Like vinegar and baking soda.
     Reply
    cletar promoted this comment Jesse Astle was starred Jesse Astle was unstarred
    Image of Ricky Cruz Ricky Cruz
    12/05/09

    @Lassus: I'd put money down that those two in a locked room would end up like G'Kar and Londo at the end of B5.
     Reply
    cletar promoted this comment Ricky Cruz was starred Ricky Cruz was unstarred
    Image of tamahome tamahome
    12/05/09

    @Lassus: Heh. I wonder how they would get along with each other.

    They should get Peter F. Hamilton. The red matter was a ripoff of his Hawking M-sink from the Void series anyway.
     Reply
    Lassus promoted this comment tamahome was starred tamahome was unstarred
    Image of Doug Nelson Doug Nelson
    12/05/09

    @Lassus: That was exactly my first thought. Halfway through the project, Ellison would turn on the production, lawsuits for years, killing the reboot.
     Reply
    Doug Nelson was starred Doug Nelson was unstarred
    Image of Lassus Lassus
    12/05/09

    @tamahome: The paperbacks are taking FOREVER to come out in America, I only managed to read the first one a year ago because I picked up what I think was the last copy available in Iceland.
     Reply
    Lassus was starred Lassus was unstarred
    Image of Communist Pope Communist Pope
    12/05/09

    In reply to Why Harlan Ellison May Be A Good Thing For New Trek
    I'm not trying to slight Ellison (nor enrage any of his diehard fans) with this question, but... has he written anything particularly noteworthy in the past two decades, even three? I ask because, if you look at any artist, their greatest period of creativity is generally in their youth. The older they get, the more unlikely it is that they'll do anything on par with their earlier endeavors.

    With that in mind, I'm highly skeptical that Ellison could catch "City..." lightning in a bottle twice at this point in his career. If I were Abrams, I'd send Ellison a gracious but firm "no thank you" and put my efforts into finding a more modern, up-and-coming writer with a flair for thinking outside the sci-fi box. Heck, you're telling me none of the writers currently working on Abrams' various projects have thought-provoking Trek ideas floating around in their heads?

    Then again, if I were Abrams I'd also be sleeping with a lot more super models than I do now, especially given that I currently sleep with none of them.
     Reply
    Communist Pope was starred Communist Pope was unstarred
    Image of doxiadis doxiadis
    12/05/09

    @Communist Pope: Ageism sucks. Frank Lloyd Wright shook out the Guggenheim when he was 88. See also: Oscar Niemeyer, Picasso, Michelangelo, to name a few of the absolutely-prove-you-wrongs.

    The main argument against Ellison is that Pantagruelian mountain of wet festering dreck called I, Robot. (His screenplay adaptation). Mark Zug, I love you, but: wow.
     Reply
    Communist Pope approved this comment doxiadis was starred doxiadis was unstarred
    Image of wealhtheow wealhtheow
    12/06/09

    @Communist Pope: Agreed. He hasn't written or published anything in more than ten years. A collab with Harlan would have actually meant something thirty years ago.
     Reply
    Communist Pope promoted this comment wealhtheow was starred wealhtheow was unstarred
    Image of Communist Pope Communist Pope
    12/06/09

    @doxiadis: You know what else sucks? Lack of reading comprehension. You're throwing alleged "prove-you-wrongs" at me, but I never said that all artists are most creative in their youth. I said "generally," i.e. most but not all. I also said it is "unlikely" they'll do better work later as opposed to earlier, i.e. not "impossible." And of course, I asked if anyone knew of anything noteworthy that Ellison had done in the past two decades. i.e., I raised specific concerns about one specific artist and asked if anyone knew of anything that would assuage my misgivings about his current creative capabilities.

    So, no, you didn't "prove me wrong" in the least. You misread or misunderstood what I wrote and then answered questions I never asked. If anything, the people you mentioned are "prove-me-rights," as they prove that not all artists are incapable of the genius of their youth as they sail into their elder years. Which is exactly what I said!

    Now, if you can show that every artist is always more creative later rather than earlier, than you will prove my non-absolute belief regarding the opposite wrong. Good luck to you.
     Reply
    Edited by Communist Pope at 12/06/09 12:37 PM Communist Pope was starred Communist Pope was unstarred
    Image of goldfarb goldfarb
    12/05/09

    In reply to Why Harlan Ellison May Be A Good Thing For New Trek
    "Yes, we know that it was heavily rewritten..."

    doesn't this suggest that such a collaboration isn't such a good idea?
    Ellison is very overrated and Abrams/Kurtzman/Orci/Lindelof are very much style over substance, as much as I like (read enjoyed) their Star Trek /film/ the script was ridiculous shit...writers strike not withstanding...

    doesn't Ellison have an anthology to finish?
     Reply
    goldfarb was starred goldfarb was unstarred
    Image of FrankenPC FrankenPC
    12/05/09

    @goldfarb: Ellison is OVERRATED? You're kidding me. Compared to who? You? LOL!!!
     Reply
    FrankenPC was starred FrankenPC was unstarred
    Image of goldfarb goldfarb
    12/05/09

    @FrankenPC: why is it that any kind of criticism of anyone is immediately turned around like this?
    compared to me?
    Yes, compared to me Ellison is overrated.

    sheesh....

    he's overrated because the only things that people ever mention when talking about Ellison is that he wrote some 'classic' Star Trek and Outer Limits episodes and some good short stories...and that he has a temper etc...
    that's about it...
    it seems to me that many people are very quick to agree that he's brilliant and an influential force in Science Fiction...but no one really mentions any of his work...

    calling him overrated says nothing about Ellison...it says something about the people who shout his name from the rooftops, likely without having read much of his work. (obviously I'm not referring to you FrankenPC)
     Reply
    Edited by goldfarb at 12/05/09 1:04 PM goldfarb was starred goldfarb was unstarred
    Image of Chip Skylark of Space Chip Skylark of Space
    12/05/09

    @goldfarb: come on man, it's only been 30 years. Give him some time to clean it up. It's not like Wilson Tucker, Bertram Chandler and Mack Reynolds are still waiting for their stories to be published.
     Reply
    Chip Skylark of Space was starred Chip Skylark of Space was unstarred
    Image of FrankenPC FrankenPC
    12/05/09

    @goldfarb: Well said. Ok, I could have been a bit overtaken by Deathbird. Maybe too much so. Still...I love his work. It's brutal. Calling it "sci fi" is a bit much though. Fiction is more realistic.
     Reply
    FrankenPC was starred FrankenPC was unstarred
    Image of goldfarb goldfarb
    12/05/09

    @FrankenPC: :) chalk it up to "conversation on the internet..."
     Reply
    goldfarb was starred goldfarb was unstarred
    Image of theblazeuk theblazeuk
    12/06/09

    @FrankenPC: No he's overrated compared to you because that was such an awesome putdown. :P (I read your later comment after writing this and you retracted your snarkyness, so kudos)

    Seriously, I've read some Ellison after JMS getting all fanboyish over him, and it was alright - some really good concepts in some of his more famous stories, but like goldfarb says, not all of his work is on the same level.

    I do agree that the main issue the industry has with him however is that he expects straightfowardness and that he has little time for the 'suits'. If you believe what he writes (and I'm a little skeptical at points) then all power to him. However as good as Soldier and Demon with a Glass Hand were, I preferred Terminator. And it really isn't that similar to I Have No Mouth And Yet I must Scream beyond the AI revolution.

    Everything I read was very, very bleak - which I like mostly, but don't feel that it's quite what I' d like to see in Star Trek. Concepts could be good.
     Reply
    FrankenPC promoted this comment theblazeuk was starred theblazeuk was unstarred
    Image of FrankenPC FrankenPC
    12/06/09

    @theblazeuk: Now there you make a good argument. Myhaps his writigng is simply too bleak for Star Trek.
     Reply
    FrankenPC was starred FrankenPC was unstarred
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