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The Existential Loneliness That Unites Batman and the Joker
The Secret That Made Spider-Man A Killer

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the memorexe
12/06/09

In reply to The Existential Loneliness That Unites Batman and the Joker
The psychology of Batman/Joker is a default setting: We know. However this:

Even so, his essay and Heath Ledger's anarchic portrayal of the Joker — by turns acerbic, childlike, barbarous, and oddly feminine, as if he were bored even with the unwritten rules about how a man should walk or talk — seem to be in a kind of accidental dialogue.

is a magnificent turn of phrase--so much more insightful (and crafted) than the article it critiques.
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tetracycloide promoted this comment Edited by the memorexe at 12/06/09 11:57 PM the memorexe was starred the memorexe was unstarred

EmporerOfJustice
12/06/09

In reply to The Existential Loneliness That Unites Batman and the Joker
As to this article, I have one quibble.

The Joker is a liar. Through and through the Joker is not acquainted with reality or the truth. Whatever veil he can see behind to see the truth of human existence, we should all realize that he isnt even watching the same show as the rest of us. He makes it up as he goes along. In his word any justification is correct.

We shouldnt try to rationalize insane people.

Batman on the other hand sees the flaws of our existence and simply acts as an arbiter of justice. Thats all. He doesnt try to change the world or people through Batman, he just tries to keep it even. And he fails at it mostly.
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tetracycloide
12/07/09

@EmporerOfJustice: i can't speak for the comics, haven't not read them, but in the films batman is absolutely trying to change the world through his actions, trying to change the people of gotham. he comes right out and states it flatly, that he'll stay "as long as it takes to show the people of gotham that their city doesn't belong to the criminals and the corrupt." then again later when he discribes his purpose as batman: "people need dramatic examples to shake them out of apathy."
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Edited by tetracycloide at 12/07/09 11:21 AM tetracycloide was starred tetracycloide was unstarred

EmporerOfJustice
12/07/09

@tetracycloide: Believing that Gotham City deserves justice does not mean that Batman is trying to change anyone. He RARELY lets people help him unless they are proven in some way. He asks for nothing from the common man. He may think the people of Gotham are apathetic in some cases but being the victim of crime is not apathy, its bad luck. Those lines in the film don't really match with what Batman does. What actions does he take to support those lines? Not much. He just defends people. I dont remember an instances of Batman asking people to take action in a blog or something...

A Batman blog would fail big time.
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tetracycloide
12/07/09

@EmporerOfJustice: sure he does. his every action is to show the common people that they can stand up to the corrupt just as easily as he can as long as they stand together, his very existence is a rebellion against the fear others would have permeate the city and strangle it. the climax of this is when two ships of ordinary gothomites decide not to kill each other and show the joker they can all be just as noble and self-sacrificing as batman from the ordinary people of gotham to the scum of gotham's prisons.
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EmporerOfJustice
12/07/09

@tetracycloide: The entire point behind the Batman mythos is that he isnt a real man, but a monster or something.

I always though that part of the movie was funny. What kind of idiot blows up a ship full of people thinking that they can trust the psycho that put them in that situation in the first place. Its completely illogical. They didnt spare each other out of the goodness in their hearts. They did it because it made sense. Even a hardened criminal has that much sense.
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tetracycloide
12/08/09

@EmporerOfJustice: what kind of idiot stands by and watches while guys like falcone gradually build up the power base necessary to shot the richest man in gotham in cold blood in front of two councilmen, a union offical, a few off-duty cops, and a judge? everyone was scared, batman showed up and did his thing, then people stopped being so scared all the time. he changed people. sure, he's got just enough mythos to keep his identity a secret and remain incorruptable but everyone still knows that, under the mask and the toys he is a real man. batman practically created harvey dent, the good harvey before he goes insane with grief, with his actions in the first film.
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Batmanuel
12/06/09

In reply to The Existential Loneliness That Unites Batman and the Joker
I thought it was a given, even in The Killing Joke, that the Joker was never truthful about his backstory. Even in his own head, he is revising how he came to be. That's one small problem with Burton's Batman, how it provides a concrete origin to the Joker that the comics and TDK left a mystery.
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Purple Dave promoted this comment Batmanuel was starred Batmanuel was unstarred

Purple Dave
12/06/09

@Batmanuel:
Within the scope of TKJ, I think the Joker's backstory is more or less truthful. Within the scope of the DC Universe, it then becomes a question of whether TKJ is canon or not. At one point, I think it was, since Barbara Gordon has forever after been Oracle instead of Batgirl (alternate universes like the DCAU excluded), but I think TKJ itself got rebooted out of canon sometime back.
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Ama Wilson
12/06/09

@Purple Dave: Moore himself dislikes the story and it's popularity - especially the fact that they kept Babs getting shot as cannon. He's said before that he doesn't consider the story cannon and that we especially should not consider the 'backstory' to be so either. And the DCU's been pretty good lately about continously throwing out there that it's probably not true maybe.
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Purple Dave promoted this comment Ama Wilson was starred Ama Wilson was unstarred

Purple Dave
12/07/09

@Ama Wilson:
We've seen plenty of times where a comic book story that was written to be canon was written off later, and others where something that was written to fall outside of canon was "borrowed" in at a later date. Moore's intent only explains what he was thinking when he wrote it, not how DC has decided to treat it over the years. About the only way that you can guarantee how your story will continue to be treated over the years is to get it officially released under the Elseworlds imprint, which TKJ was not.
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Dr Emilio Lizardo
12/06/09

In reply to The Existential Loneliness That Unites Batman and the Joker
Somebody is teaching this? I'm not even a huge Batman fan beyond the movies, but it seems obvious that this is the whole point of the Batman/Joker relationship and since the Joker is Batman's most common nemesis (to me, the casual fan), the main theme of the whole series.

So can I get college credit since I already figured this out?
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Moff
12/06/09

@Dr Emilio Lizardo: College credit? I'm beginning to wonder if you really are a doctor.
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cletar
12/06/09

@Moff: I'm sure the good doctor means continuing education credit, to maintain his no doubt numerous professional certifications.
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Dr Emilio Lizardo
12/07/09

@Moff: Well, I don't expect to get CME for a college liberal arts course. I'm slowly working my way to another degree in communications. I know, is phony major, but it's a hobby.
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Starwatcher
12/06/09

In reply to The Existential Loneliness That Unites Batman and the Joker
Yes, I believe at the end of the day they see themselves as sort of ying/yang twins, brothers who took different paths, although when you get down to it both are criminals. Why do you suppose they haven't killed each other yet? They've both had ample opportunity. I know, I know, it wouldn't be good for Batman comics sales, but that to me is the most compelling part of their relationship. Batman, the hero, dons a frightening costume; the Joker, the villain, dresses up essentially as a clown, something intended to make people smile. I think at heart they really need each other, even though their relationship is dysfunctional at best.
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Purple Dave
12/07/09

@[io9.com] good cop will tell you that they hope for a day when they're all out of a job. Batman's the same way. The Joker dreams of killing Batman someday, but he also probably knows in the back of his head that he'd never know what to do with himself if he ever succeeded. Batman might not know what to do with himself if he didn't have to fight crime, but he'd still like to give it a try someday.

Oh, and it's yin-yang. A ying-yang is something entirely different...
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Edited by Purple Dave at 12/07/09 11:36 AM Purple Dave was starred Purple Dave was unstarred

Starwatcher
12/07/09

@Purple Dave: I don't believe that, deep down, most cops really want crime to end. Why would they want to put themselves out of work? That's just something they say to make people think they're noble. I'm not saying all cops are bad people, but I do know that corruption is a huge problem in many precincts--this according to my law enforcement class at college. They fudge their numbers constantly to get more funding. Ultimately cops are like everyone else: human.
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Bill-Lee
12/06/09

In reply to The Existential Loneliness That Unites Batman and the Joker
I've always preferred a mythological approach to the Joker. He's like Loki or the Coyote from American Indian lore. He says things others are afraid to say, mocks our false assumptions, and forces a re-evaluation of our rules. Like the Heyoka of Lakota tradition he performs an almost sacred function -- while mocking and deriding rules, he reminds us why we have those rules.
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Edited by Bill-Lee at 12/06/09 11:41 AM Bill-Lee was starred Bill-Lee was unstarred

Cory Gross
12/06/09

@Bill-Lee: I suppose that's a way of looking at it. It's probably more compelling storywise than my own approach to the Joker, which is that he's a serial killer. Romanticizing him is like romanticizing Charles Manson or Ted Bundy.

Part of that might be because what you said about how he "He says things others are afraid to say, mocks our false assumptions, and forces a re-evaluation of our rules" is mostly wrong. At least in the film version, it recalls the bald-faced lie he told Harvey Dent about his not being a schemer. He was the biggest schemer in the movie. He was only foiled by other people working by gut morality rather than by the rules. He may have been smarter and more vicious, but he wasn't fundamentally different from any other sadistic criminal.

Going on, and pointing more at Novy, where I find the dynamic between him and Batman interesting resides entirely within how Batman reacts to him. If one holds to an ethos of captial punishment, then the solution is easy: kill the Joker. Hang 'im! But Batman doesn't, or least he defers those decisions to the State. He isn't The Punisher. So Batman is forced to deal ethically with an insane serial killer. As a proxy for our own criminal justice problems, it's fascinating.

And like how our society doesn't need its sociopaths and pedophiles, Batman doesn't need the Joker. The ying-yang thing is silly. It would suit Batman absolutely FINE to get rid of the Joker. He'd be better off with the Joker gone and further along in his goals, which exist independently of the Joker. Some day, Batman WANTS to retire. That's the whole point of trying to eradicate the criminal element: that glorious day when the Batman is no longer needed.

Maybe the Joker needs Batman as a foil, but that's because he is crazy. Like Jack and Scotland Yard, he needs to taunt, stalk and define himself in opposition to someone.
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maeludir
12/06/09

@Cory Gross: Batman retire? My smooth ass. Batman is, as has already been said, batshit insane.

Some might bring up the point of self-image; wear a mask long enough and it becomes your face. But I think that's wrong too: Bruce Wayne became Batman when he was traumatized by witnessing his parents' murders. It shows in the moody post-college git who came home for the appeal hearing.

Batman may not need The Joker, but he needs a nemesis to keep the focus off his own issues. Hypothetically, if Gotham were clean Batman would still be Batman - he'd just be unemployed.

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Cash907Censored
12/06/09

In reply to The Existential Loneliness That Unites Batman and the Joker
Are lecturers paid? Because if they are, and I was a student at UCA, I'd ask for a refund for whatever portion of my tuition that covers this dude's salary.
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Jrsy Devil's Advocate®
12/06/09

@Cash907Censored: Why so serious?
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Cash907Censored
12/06/09

@Jrsy Devil's Advocate®:
Because I'm lonely. Existentially.
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Jrsy Devil's Advocate®
12/06/09

@Cash907Censored: Well then be careful because you're only one day away from becoming Batman or the Joker. 50/50 odds.
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Cash907Censored
12/06/09

@Jrsy Devil's Advocate®:
Where's two-face when you need him?
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Jrsy Devil's Advocate®
12/06/09

@Cash907Censored: Out looking for a two-headed coin..
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The_Sporean_Bob
12/06/09

@Cash907Censored: he only shows up half the time.

*crickets*
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Cash907Censored
12/07/09

@The_Sporean_Bob: Goodnight everybody! Please, try the veal and don't forget to tip your waitress.
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Edited by Cash907Censored at 12/07/09 1:54 AM Cash907Censored was starred Cash907Censored was unstarred

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