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San Francisco, 3:12 AM
Thu Dec 10
25 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of AgnosticTheocrat AgnosticTheocrat
    11/24/09

    In reply to Kim Stanley Robinson Takes Us Back Out Into The Solar System, 300 Years From Now
    KSR does hard Sci-fi very well, but holy ghost on a cracker, his ideas about government and economics are completely unrealistic. It's like he's good at realistic imagining anything so long as it doesn't involve a human brain. "Blue Mars" was like "Atlas Shrugged" from a parallel dimension, complete with garbled economic theory, utopianism, and soap-box soliloquies. Hopefully he checks those at the door in his next effort.

    (Loved the Mars series, don't get me wrong. Just think that putting a bunch of Californians in a locked room with 6 ounces of weed and a copy of "Walden" is a terrible way to develop a system of government. . .)
     Reply
    Chip Skylark of Space promoted this comment Edited by AgnosticTheocrat at 11/24/09 9:15 PM AgnosticTheocrat was starred AgnosticTheocrat was unstarred
    Image of nodrognelg nodrognelg
    11/24/09

    In reply to Kim Stanley Robinson Takes Us Back Out Into The Solar System, 300 Years From Now
    The "Galileo's Dream" book is available in shops already, here in Australia at least. I've read it, and it is not good. Virtually unreadable. Galileo (the historical person) is written as a modern American, and the plot is incomprehensible. I liked the other books by Robinson, so I hope that Galileo was just a single misstep. Here's hoping...
     Reply
    Charlie Jane Anders promoted this comment nodrognelg was starred nodrognelg was unstarred
    Image of leftatmars002 leftatmars002
    11/24/09

    In reply to Kim Stanley Robinson Takes Us Back Out Into The Solar System, 300 Years From Now
    Odd that his telescope can see 3 Thousand years into the future but the title is 2312. Just sayin...
     Reply
    Grey_Area promoted this comment leftatmars002 was starred leftatmars002 was unstarred
    Image of Grey_Area Grey_Area
    11/24/09

    @leftatmars002: Just to set things straight: Galileo's Dream is not part of the upcoming trilogy set in 2312. Also, the description of his being able to see into the future with a telescope is misleading. There is time travel to the 31st Century. I'll write more about this book later.
     Reply
    Grey_Area was starred Grey_Area was unstarred
    Image of Charlie Jane Anders Charlie Jane Anders
    11/24/09

    @Grey_Area: Yay can't wait to see your writeup of it! I haven't seen a copy yet...
     Reply
    Charlie Jane Anders was starred Charlie Jane Anders was unstarred
    Image of Lassus Lassus
    11/24/09

    In reply to Kim Stanley Robinson Takes Us Back Out Into The Solar System, 300 Years From Now
    LAUGHTER

    Redqueenmeg beat me to the happy dance, dammit! I'm so unhappy!

    However, I am also very happy about this.
     Reply
    Lassus was starred Lassus was unstarred
    Image of redqueenmeg redqueenmeg
    11/24/09

    In reply to Kim Stanley Robinson Takes Us Back Out Into The Solar System, 300 Years From Now
    *happydance*

    *gonna go read all the KSR in her library now*
     Reply
    redqueenmeg was starred redqueenmeg was unstarred
    Image of Honu Harry Honu Harry
    11/24/09

    In reply to Kim Stanley Robinson Takes Us Back Out Into The Solar System, 300 Years From Now
    Might I say that the block quote says mankind has 'left' Earth not 'abandoned' Earth. Maybe man has abandoned Earth in 100 years in these books, but I'm guessing not. A nuclear-irradiated globally warmed hellhole Earth is still going to be more hospitable by and large than say, Mars for one. And that's our second best option!
     Reply
    Honu Harry was starred Honu Harry was unstarred
    Image of disatess disatess
    11/24/09

    @Honu Harry: Mars would be deem less hostile , if start now .

    and if we truly kept at for over 300 years ... we could make it a new planet for us .

    but We humans can`t concentrate that long it seems .
     Reply
    disatess was starred disatess was unstarred
    Image of Honu Harry Honu Harry
    11/24/09

    @disatess: Heck, we can't even concentrate on making the Earth less hostile let alone Mars! It would be much easier (and cheaper) to "terraform" Earth by working to make it less toxic and greener. We can't even seem to agree that there's a problem. Good luck with getting the people that don't want to spend a dime on finding alternatives to the petroleum economy to agree to the billions it would cost to even get a single manned mission to Mars. I mean, I think we should ultimately terraform Mars as well, but mainly because the best way to heal the Earth would be to ship half its human population somewhere else.
     Reply
    Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H. promoted this comment Honu Harry was starred Honu Harry was unstarred
    Image of reddingofish reddingofish
    11/24/09

    In reply to Kim Stanley Robinson Takes Us Back Out Into The Solar System, 300 Years From Now
    The way we are going now I don't see too much space travel even in 300 years. P.K. Dick had it right in "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?". The only people that are going to leave the planet are the rich ones. Leaving the poor and middle class to fend for themselves.
     Reply
    reddingofish was starred reddingofish was unstarred
    Image of EdificeComplex EdificeComplex
    11/24/09

    @reddingofish: If it means that the people who run Wall Street get to go off and ruin their own planet with "financial devices" then more power to 'em.
     Reply
    EdificeComplex was starred EdificeComplex was unstarred
    Image of VisibleHand VisibleHand
    11/25/09

    @EdificeComplex: I'm conifdent they will build capitalist utopias, with no gods or kings, only man. After all, nothing could possibly go wrong with that, right?
     Reply
    VisibleHand was starred VisibleHand was unstarred
    Image of EdificeComplex EdificeComplex
    11/24/09

    In reply to Kim Stanley Robinson Takes Us Back Out Into The Solar System, 300 Years From Now
    In addition to science fiction I'm a huge fan of historical fiction. Put them both together and it's a win in my book. "Gallileo's Dream" sounds like it fits perfectly into that category. The only problem I see is that Amazon lists it as being released on Dec. 29. Why isn't this a pre-Christmas release publishers?
     Reply
    EdificeComplex was starred EdificeComplex was unstarred
    Image of Byronotron Byronotron
    11/24/09

    @EdificeComplex: ask for an amazon giftcard and get it for that long journey through to the next decade.
     Reply
    Byronotron was starred Byronotron was unstarred
    Image of daveNYC daveNYC
    11/24/09

    In reply to Kim Stanley Robinson Takes Us Back Out Into The Solar System, 300 Years From Now
    "By all accounts, it's a fascinating look at the man who may have been the first real scientist."

    At the very least you've pissed of a large number of Greeks.
     Reply
    daveNYC was starred daveNYC was unstarred
    Image of RavenNemain RavenNemain
    11/24/09

    @daveNYC: Pfft - what did they ever discover except for the pythagorean theorem, displacement, the circumference of the Earth, the fact that the Earth is round and rotates on an axis, an understanding of planetary motion, heliocentricity, Euclidian geometry... Seriously, what science did the Ancient Greeks ever do?
     Reply
    Dresan promoted this comment RavenNemain was starred RavenNemain was unstarred
    Image of Klebert L. Hall Klebert L. Hall
    11/10/09

    In reply to Kim Stanley Robinson: Dystopian Fiction Is For Slackers
    Of course it's easier to write about a dystopia than a utopia. Dystopias are eminently believable, while trying to make a utopia seem like there's a chance in hell of it actually working is nigh-impossible.
    -Kle. #kimstanleyrobinson
     Reply
    Klebert L. Hall was starred Klebert L. Hall was unstarred
    Image of Pope John Peeps II Pope John Peeps II
    11/10/09

    In reply to Kim Stanley Robinson: Dystopian Fiction Is For Slackers
    The funny thing about the Thomas More's Utopia is that the whole thing isn't what people think it is. It's very subtly satirical in places, and sometimes menacing. More's Utopia wasn't meant to be prescrptively perfect, but was meant to illustrate certain things about the world at large and human nature. Like Plato's Republic, or Dante's Paradise.

    A great utopian fiction also covers all of the problems in society. But intellectually, subtly, subversively. It's not prescriptive except in the way that it teaches you how to look at the subtle currents in society as a whole, and examine the meanings in larger pictures.

    Robinson is right that it's harder to do, but he doesn't fully get at why it's so much harder. Which is fair. He's an author, and author's don't study literature. #kimstanleyrobinson
     Reply
    Pope John Peeps II was starred Pope John Peeps II was unstarred
    Image of RolandCWagner RolandCWagner
    11/10/09

    In reply to Kim Stanley Robinson: Dystopian Fiction Is For Slackers
    Needless to say that I agree with you. Even worlds just tending towards utopia are a heavy work, though imho easier to build/use than "real" utopias because they still have to evolve.
    25 years ago, two French writers, Michel Jeury & Philippe Curval, worked on an anthology of utopias short stories which was never published. But having talked with both writers, having read some of the stories written for this project, having myself written one, I'd like to say that the main idea, or feeling, that rose from this aborted project was that utopia could only be movement towards (unatainable ?) perfection, not stillness frozen in an eternal perfection. #kimstanleyrobinson
     Reply
    Kaila Hale-Stern approved this comment RolandCWagner was starred RolandCWagner was unstarred
    Image of Dr Emilio Lizardo Dr Emilio Lizardo
    11/09/09

    In reply to Kim Stanley Robinson: Dystopian Fiction Is For Slackers
    KSR has been getting a little preachy lately but I really like his stuff in general. he seems to be trying to right about how we got to the utopia in all his big works (Mars, 40/50/60, Rice and Salt) and that can certainly be an interesting story. #kimstanleyrobinson
     Reply
    Dr Emilio Lizardo was starred Dr Emilio Lizardo was unstarred
    Image of Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H. Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H.
    11/09/09

    In reply to Kim Stanley Robinson: Dystopian Fiction Is For Slackers
    This is one of the best things I've read in ages. He's right, and he said it well.

    +1, Kim. #kimstanleyrobinson
     Reply
    Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H. was starred Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H. was unstarred
    Image of Anekanta - Go Play! Anekanta - Go Play!
    11/09/09

    @Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H.: Absolutely--thanks for this Kim! #kimstanleyrobinson
     Reply
    Anekanta - Go Play! was starred Anekanta - Go Play! was unstarred
    Image of strideo strideo
    11/09/09

    In reply to Kim Stanley Robinson: Dystopian Fiction Is For Slackers
    Most science fiction I've read doesn't necessarily take place in a dystopia or a utopia but in some form of society that is pretty much somewhere in between.

    Also there are science fiction stories where one civilization has spread out to include many cities, planets, or colonies where some are virtually utopias while others are very much dystopian factory worlds.

    Also, a lot of stories I've read about utopian societies often suggest that there is something terribly wrong with the utopia at it's secret inner core or the author portrays a world where somehow people are no longer responsible for their own well being while still somehow retaining a great degree of personal freedom and growth while having almost no external challenges to overcome whatsoever. I think it'd be great if humanity could be so greatly self motivated but I imagine in such a world we'd look a lot like the fat people in WALL·E .
     Reply
    Edited by strideo at 11/09/09 3:29 PM strideo was starred strideo was unstarred
    Image of Pope John Peeps II Pope John Peeps II
    11/10/09

    @strideo: Also, a lot of stories I've read about utopian societies often suggest that there is something terribly wrong with the utopia at it's secret inner core

    I'm not trying to be snide here, but those are actually dystopian stories. They illustrate the abject failure of a utopian project. #kimstanleyrobinson
     Reply
    Pope John Peeps II was starred Pope John Peeps II was unstarred
    Image of strideo strideo
    11/10/09

    @Pope John Peeps II: You could argue that, yes.

    Another thing occurred to me though; not everyone's utopia would be the same now would it? What may seem like a blissful society to some may be felt as stifling and oppressive to others. #kimstanleyrobinson
     Reply
    strideo was starred strideo was unstarred
    Image of Pope John Peeps II Pope John Peeps II
    11/10/09

    @strideo: Well okay... I don't want to get into very elementary things about utopian fiction because we'll be here all day.

    But in broad terms, Utopian fiction is a type of fiction in which although the project seems largely successful, underlying tensions and currents in the story and in the people involved reveal difficulties, fragilities, even subtle tyrannies in the structure. No Utopia is perfect. As a classical scholar More knew this well when he named his book. In Greek u topos means both "perfect place" and "no place". It's still a "good" place, but where you find difficulties in that "goodness" is where thought is provoked.

    A dystopian book is the chronicle of the total failure of that kind project. An outright tyranny, or a miserable population, or one chemically controlled, etc. etc. #kimstanleyrobinson
     Reply
    Pope John Peeps II was starred Pope John Peeps II was unstarred
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