In passing, I feel that it should be mentioned that CHUD is Nick's own site. Not that this is bad, but I think it probably affected CHUD's decision to run with the story.
Are you all mad?! Jesse was most definitely the MVP of that episode. All the action and drama aboard the JimmyCarter. The final scene with Reese almost had a cold hearted bastard like me in tears when she tried to tell Derek about their lost child.
@wapman: Oh yeah it's true... Jesse was also amazing this time around, and I should have noted that. She's been great all along but she really knocked it out of the park for her final (I think) episode.
Well I've watched this episode twice and I'm about to watch it a third time. I was thinking about the conversation between Cameron and Sarah where Sarah asks Cameron to think about why John Connor might have wanted to send her away from him in the future. It has occured to me that getting the answer "No" to the question "Will you join us?" might be at least part of the reason.
I thought Sarah's reasoning was faulty. She implied, and tried to convince Cameron, that John sent her from the future because he wanted her away from him (presumably because he stopped trusting her), but it might as well have been because he trusted her so much that he actually wanted her with him sooner, that is, from an earlier time in his life.
@Roklimber: IMHO, I don't think her reasoning was faulty. I think she was just trying to be an asshole. Not sure how you would go about hurting a terminator's feelings, but she sure was trying...
weaver says, "humans will disappoint you." why? because they can't follow instructions, have flaws, and are self destructive as well as can't co-operate with one another....when "weaver" came out of the box it became obvious to her that she choose the wrong "team mate" and decides embark on her own mission...i think she was being held prisoner by Skynet, why else would she be inside a box, frozen? she would never be able to get out without help, so it must have be exile...
weaver is not on the side of the humans at all, she has no regard for life as she's demonstrated over and over...my theory is that her war might be with Skynet in terms of a power struggle for control...skynet is a self aware machine, but T-1000's can evolve, which places them higher on the food chain...skynet is scared about the whole thing...john conner being a cleaver guy things he can play both ends against the middle...
@Katie Ostheim: Are you referring to the UFO episode? She's only one of 1000 humans who's gotten killed as collateral damage in the war against Skynet...
• I was wondering how the sub story could have played out had Jesse not intervened. If the answer was "No" what would that liquid metal terminator have done to Connor when they met? Was that a deliberate plan to kill Connor? Why would the reply be expected in the form of a package to be retrieved?
• I'm also thinking that liquid terminator was Weaver - no reason to expect it would not survive till that time frame.
• They have clearly indicated some divide in the Skynet world. This supports the idea that several commentors have posted that Weaver was developing her own alternate AI.
• But we also saw that clearly Weaver is not on the side of humanity - so if she is making an alternate AI it does not appear that it would be a beneficent one. That would bear out here being the liquid terminator replying "No" in Jesse's story.
• When Weaver converses with John Henry its just like a terminator speaking to a human. John Henry smiles and is hopeful, he emotes. Weaver is deadpan. Still not sure where that's going.
@lava: The whole package deal may have been a test of trust. Would humans trust the metals enough to deliver the package unopened? If John Conner had opened the package, the answer might have been "Yes" and the liquid terminator would have been on the human side. But the humans failed the test.
@Plague: It might not even have been a test of trust. The T-1000 might have just noticed that the humans disobeyed an order, mutinied and tried to beat a human officer to death, 'killed' the T-888 (which had been doing a bang up job), and finally sank an absolutely priceless, irreplaceable, strategic asset. I mean, forget trust, it probably just decided that these guys were too stupid to risk joining up with, and that there might be some plankton that would make a more useful ally.
@twophrasebark: Actually, the girl that the T-1001 killed was a threat. She leveled a plasma gun at it at point-blank range. Admittedly, not an incomprehensible reaction when a liquid-metal monster rises up out of a crate next to you. But from the T-1001's point of view, it just woke up into an unexpected situation.
The tragedy is that everyone's actions throughout the sub sequence make sense. Even poor Queeg, who got caught in Hal's dilemma.
Charlie, you scared me with the title. I thought you hated this episode. I follow both T:SCC and Dollhouse, and I thought this episode was the best thing Friday night. Don't get me wrong, Dollhouse was great. But, this episode just meant so much more to the overall series. The payoff in this episode had been building since the second episode of season two.
@SaiDolon: No I really loved this episode. It was one of my favorites of the series so far, and definitely made me upgrade my estimation of several of the episodes that came before, because now a lot of stuff fits together better.
Honestly, when I heard of the casting (annoying bi-questioning supporting character from Heroes and one of the original 90210 guys - the ANNOYING guy) the only saving grace were the actors playing Sarah and Cameron. And the universe and hope for somewhat-decent writing.
I was wrong. With this ep, I'm a big fan of Green's and Dekker's work.
The writing is superb (I think what clinched it for me was the Terminator Hiding Since The Jazz Era episode onward). I'm heartily impressed that the writers cast so many clues about Conner having Riley doubts across so many episodes across the season without the need to point them out. I also like, as Charlie does, the themes covering what is human, what is not and what happens to humanity when it becomes so enmeshed with artificial intelligence.
Oh, and what a great way to open the episode:
"How long would you last in a room with Cameron if she wanted you dead?"
"Only as long as she liked."
...Then letting that exchange percolate until Conner, much later, revealed he know about Riley for quite a long time.
Quite the episode, and what's showing to be, quite the series!
@Trai_Dep: Oh, and Jesse (Stephanie Jacobsen's acting was also superb). The crazy lady. But The Crazy Lady For Reasons That Would Make Any of Us as Insane.
And the metaphor of the sub's hothouse environment standing in for living in a John Conner future was inspired.
This was one of the best episodes of the series so far. It both answered and raised many questions.
We saw a glimpse of the man and leader John Conner is supposed to become. In the end though, it's his mother's lap he cries on, not Cameron's.
Jesse knows Cameron, but would this Cameron have recognized Jesse since they're not from the same timeline?
Weaver is just preparing contingency plans. If Ellison or any other employee becomes a liability, she's ready with a "generous severance package".
Is Weaver (if that was her in the box) part of a future rogue machine faction? If it wasn't Weaver in the box is there another liquid metal terminator around somewhere?
@Ghost_in_the_Machine: Well, we know that Skynet tried to wipe out the human race (it's kinda the whole basis). We know that it didn't succeed, or it wouldn't be sending Terminators back after John. We can assume that it's eventually destroyed in most timelines, as it is very likely on the verge of losing each time it sends another Terminator back.
Now, Skynet (and by extension, John Connor) has been operating on a 1/0 basis, where 1=win and 0=lose. Each side is trying to destroy the other. Weaver, on the other hand, seems to be teaching John Henry to become human-in-spirit. While she, too, is doing the 1/0 thing (she's pretty lethal when any given plan goes south), there is evidence that she, or whoever she was sent by, has at least conceptualized 2=coexistence. If Skynet does come into existence with a humanized concept of right and wrong, then perhaps there won't be all-out war...or at least not in John Connor's lifetime.
My thoughts? Cromartie and Cameron get humanized and in the future are "John Connor" because at some point he dies and they are all that is left protecting humanity from the really bad Skynet (or whatever) run by Garbage Lady or someone else because perhaps it's a robot race thing and the t-1000 on the sub represented their race. Humans at that point are just stuck in the middle.
@MISS MERCY STREET: My guess is that we will never see Future John. I think it works to have him permanently inaccessible and enclosed in mystery. He is a point towards which Present John is traveling, but the point is always receding as John approaches.
To my knowledge, this was the first episode to show us what kind of weapon power the humans have in the future, a plasma rifle that can take out a T-888 with one shot.
@Mooshie: Yeah I was thinking about that... makes sense you wouldn't put a T-888 in charge unless you had a means to take it out of action if you needed to.
I can't figure out if, with the established concept of alternate timelines, if Jesse's actions created or prevented the future she came from. After all this Jesse/Riley/Sarah/Cameron business it wouldn't be outlandish to assume that John trusts humans less than he did before.
Of course the 2027 Conner in this episode, heh, if he's even alive, is not exactly inspiring trust in his soldiers by trying to cut deals with un-reprogrammed cyborgs. I don't know if there's some sort of creative embargo with he new movie coming out, but I'd love to see the John from this show in the future.
@txtphile: I don't think they're doing circular causality. Every time you travel back, you create a new future. So Jesse didn't cause the future she came from, she caused a whole new future -- one we haven't seen yet, and one which is different from any we've seen so far.
I want a spinoff existing entirely of the misadventures of Catherine Weaver and John Henry the wacky robots. I could watch them endlessly, they are always the highlights of the show for me. Though this whole episode was great, no pointless or unnecessary filler bits for a change. The way they left Jesse's fate ambiguous was awesome, her face as she turned around to see if Derek was still gonna shoot her sent chills down my spine.
08/04/09
08/04/09
08/04/09
08/04/09
03/22/09
03/22/09
03/22/09
03/22/09
03/29/09
03/22/09
03/22/09
I thought Sarah's reasoning was faulty. She implied, and tried to convince Cameron, that John sent her from the future because he wanted her away from him (presumably because he stopped trusting her), but it might as well have been because he trusted her so much that he actually wanted her with him sooner, that is, from an earlier time in his life.
03/22/09
03/22/09
weaver is not on the side of the humans at all, she has no regard for life as she's demonstrated over and over...my theory is that her war might be with Skynet in terms of a power struggle for control...skynet is a self aware machine, but T-1000's can evolve, which places them higher on the food chain...skynet is scared about the whole thing...john conner being a cleaver guy things he can play both ends against the middle...
03/22/09
03/23/09
Wow. Good ideas.
03/22/09
03/22/09
Good nylons aren't cheap, y'know.
03/22/09
03/22/09
• I was wondering how the sub story could have played out had Jesse not intervened. If the answer was "No" what would that liquid metal terminator have done to Connor when they met? Was that a deliberate plan to kill Connor? Why would the reply be expected in the form of a package to be retrieved?
• I'm also thinking that liquid terminator was Weaver - no reason to expect it would not survive till that time frame.
• They have clearly indicated some divide in the Skynet world. This supports the idea that several commentors have posted that Weaver was developing her own alternate AI.
• But we also saw that clearly Weaver is not on the side of humanity - so if she is making an alternate AI it does not appear that it would be a beneficent one. That would bear out here being the liquid terminator replying "No" in Jesse's story.
• When Weaver converses with John Henry its just like a terminator speaking to a human. John Henry smiles and is hopeful, he emotes. Weaver is deadpan. Still not sure where that's going.
03/22/09
That's my 2 cents.
03/22/09
Hmm. Good thinking. I tend to agree with you on this.
Overall, best episode of the season to date.
And notice how the best episodes are the one that have Sarah in them the least?
03/22/09
03/22/09
It's not like she was in any danger from them.
That's my two cents.
03/22/09
The tragedy is that everyone's actions throughout the sub sequence make sense. Even poor Queeg, who got caught in Hal's dilemma.
03/23/09
I guess that's what they were going for, but it seemed kind of "lite" to me on the your behavior gave me the answer I was looking for shtick.
I totally agree about the HAL dilemma Queeg got put into.
03/22/09
03/22/09
03/22/09
I was wrong. With this ep, I'm a big fan of Green's and Dekker's work.
The writing is superb (I think what clinched it for me was the Terminator Hiding Since The Jazz Era episode onward). I'm heartily impressed that the writers cast so many clues about Conner having Riley doubts across so many episodes across the season without the need to point them out. I also like, as Charlie does, the themes covering what is human, what is not and what happens to humanity when it becomes so enmeshed with artificial intelligence.
Oh, and what a great way to open the episode:
"How long would you last in a room with Cameron if she wanted you dead?"
"Only as long as she liked."
...Then letting that exchange percolate until Conner, much later, revealed he know about Riley for quite a long time.
Quite the episode, and what's showing to be, quite the series!
03/22/09
And the metaphor of the sub's hothouse environment standing in for living in a John Conner future was inspired.
03/22/09
We saw a glimpse of the man and leader John Conner is supposed to become. In the end though, it's his mother's lap he cries on, not Cameron's.
Jesse knows Cameron, but would this Cameron have recognized Jesse since they're not from the same timeline?
Weaver is just preparing contingency plans. If Ellison or any other employee becomes a liability, she's ready with a "generous severance package".
Is Weaver (if that was her in the box) part of a future rogue machine faction? If it wasn't Weaver in the box is there another liquid metal terminator around somewhere?
03/23/09
Well, we know that Skynet tried to wipe out the human race (it's kinda the whole basis). We know that it didn't succeed, or it wouldn't be sending Terminators back after John. We can assume that it's eventually destroyed in most timelines, as it is very likely on the verge of losing each time it sends another Terminator back.
Now, Skynet (and by extension, John Connor) has been operating on a 1/0 basis, where 1=win and 0=lose. Each side is trying to destroy the other. Weaver, on the other hand, seems to be teaching John Henry to become human-in-spirit. While she, too, is doing the 1/0 thing (she's pretty lethal when any given plan goes south), there is evidence that she, or whoever she was sent by, has at least conceptualized 2=coexistence. If Skynet does come into existence with a humanized concept of right and wrong, then perhaps there won't be all-out war...or at least not in John Connor's lifetime.
03/22/09
03/22/09
From what I have seen - it's either Cameron or another character stating Connor's orders. Connor has been off-camera.
03/22/09
03/23/09
03/22/09
To my knowledge, this was the first episode to show us what kind of weapon power the humans have in the future, a plasma rifle that can take out a T-888 with one shot.
03/22/09
03/22/09
Of course the 2027 Conner in this episode, heh, if he's even alive, is not exactly inspiring trust in his soldiers by trying to cut deals with un-reprogrammed cyborgs. I don't know if there's some sort of creative embargo with he new movie coming out, but I'd love to see the John from this show in the future.
03/22/09
03/22/09
03/22/09
A show about John Henry would actually be a show about a a grown man playing and painting little toys. Would you really want that? Lol.
But seriously, he's great. He always keeps me interested in what he has to say.
03/22/09
03/22/09
WEAVER: And what did you find?
JOHN HENRY: Beastwizard VII has had a significant increase in DVD sales since George Laszlo was believed to have killed 20 FBI agents.
WEAVER: That is interesting.
JOHN HENRY: Do you think I could be Beastwizard?
WEAVER: No. George Laszlo is dead.
JOHN HENRY: That is unfortunate. I enjoyed Beastwizard VII.
03/23/09
Oh great jeebus, you _nailed_ it.
03/23/09