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San Francisco, 2:01 PM
Tue Nov 10
27 posts in the last 24 hours

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  • posts about #mediatieins more →

    io9's Hivemind Reviews The Terminator 4 Novelization

    Greg Bear Solves Halo's Greatest Mystery

    How Vonda McIntyre Overcame The "Star Trek Novelist" Stigma

    Peter David's Star Trek Soap Opera Sails Onwards

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of Dashiell Bennett Dashiell Bennett
    06/29/09

    In reply to io9's Hivemind Reviews The Terminator 4 Novelization
    I don't understand the charge that the movie was "nonsensical." If anything, it was completely obvious and predictable.
     Reply
    Dashiell Bennett was starred Dashiell Bennett was unstarred
    Image of Smeagol92055 Smeagol92055
    06/29/09

    In reply to io9's Hivemind Reviews The Terminator 4 Novelization
    Holy cow. How the heck do I get my name in the hat for the next hivemind review?
     Reply
    Smeagol92055 was starred Smeagol92055 was unstarred
    Image of crashedpc - Haifisch crashedpc - Haifisch
    06/29/09

    @Smeagol92055: R.O.A.C.H.: Three words: Suitcase of cash.
     Reply
    crashedpc - Haifisch was starred crashedpc - Haifisch was unstarred
    Image of Smeagol92055 Smeagol92055
    06/29/09

    @crashedpc : ゴキブリ and 蟑螂 division: Ah. How about "nuclear warhead aimed at Graeme's house?"
     Reply
    Smeagol92055 was starred Smeagol92055 was unstarred
    Image of crashedpc - Haifisch crashedpc - Haifisch
    06/29/09

    @Smeagol92055: R.O.A.C.H.: That just might put a damper on things, considering that he's a relatively innocent bystander in all of this and I am in my pleasure bunker in Dimension X.
     Reply
    crashedpc - Haifisch was starred crashedpc - Haifisch was unstarred
    Image of Smeagol92055 Smeagol92055
    06/29/09

    @crashedpc : ゴキブリ and 蟑螂 division: That may well be, but c'mon, he's Graeme. He likes everything we hate.
     Reply
    Smeagol92055 was starred Smeagol92055 was unstarred
    Image of crashedpc - Haifisch crashedpc - Haifisch
    06/29/09

    @Smeagol92055: R.O.A.C.H.: *Formal voice* I can neither confirm or deny such statements.
     Reply
    crashedpc - Haifisch was starred crashedpc - Haifisch was unstarred
    Image of RonMaverick291 RonMaverick291
    06/29/09

    In reply to io9's Hivemind Reviews The Terminator 4 Novelization
    I don't see how this is the only site that likes Transformers 2 over Terminator Salvation. Can someone explain this to me, I am dead serious.


    I want to give this site more credit than to hype Transformers just because it has Megan Fox in it. But this is starting to be the only possible conclusion..

     Reply
    RonMaverick291 was starred RonMaverick291 was unstarred
    Image of Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H. Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H.
    06/29/09

    @RonMaverick291: I think you misread Charlie's review of Transformers.
     Reply
    Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H. was starred Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H. was unstarred
    Image of crashedpc - Haifisch crashedpc - Haifisch
    06/29/09

    In reply to io9's Hivemind Reviews The Terminator 4 Novelization
    The scary thing is, at the end of the book are like ten pages of ads for more T4 related things... including the next book. I need to get my climbing gear; I'm off to the Mountains of Madness.
     Reply
    crashedpc - Haifisch was starred crashedpc - Haifisch was unstarred
    Image of Grey_Area Grey_Area
    06/29/09

    @crashedpc : ゴキブリ and 蟑螂 division: That next book is a prequel by Timothy Zahn.

    A rag-tag group of survivors from Judgement Day are huddled in the ruins eating rats saying things like, "I sure hope John Connor shows up soon."

    "Yes, his soothing radio voice will inspire us all to fight for humanity's future."

    "You there, boy! Have you knocked up John Connor's mom yet?"

    What did the boy say?"

    "He said not to expect Connor today, but that he would arrive the next day."

    "Hey, nice pants!"
     Reply
    Grey_Area was starred Grey_Area was unstarred
    Image of crashedpc - Haifisch crashedpc - Haifisch
    06/29/09

    @Grey_Area: Sigh.


    "Oh my goodness, where DID you get those slacks?"

    "Eh, I scrounged them from the ruins of Neiman Marcus off of the partially eaten body of a hobo."

    "Oh, Kyle!"

     Reply
    crashedpc - Haifisch was starred crashedpc - Haifisch was unstarred
    Image of twophrasebark twophrasebark
    06/29/09

    In reply to io9's Hivemind Reviews The Terminator 4 Novelization
    And why is saving Kyle Reese so important? So that John Connor can send him back in time so that he gets born? Is he going to disappear Back to the Future-style if Kyle dies?


    Exactly! If the timeline is totally different, then it wasn't born from Kyle Reese being sent back in the first place. Who knows what would happen if Kyle didn't go back. Maybe Cyberdyne would never have found the Terminator's chip and created Skynet.


    Maybe Connor should have shot Reese on sight.

     Reply
    twophrasebark was starred twophrasebark was unstarred
    Image of crashedpc - Haifisch crashedpc - Haifisch
    06/29/09

    @twophrasebark: Hahaha, that would have been truly screwed up. Even though Connor knows damn well Reese is his daddy, he shoots him anyway. Sadistic. And perhaps worthy of a Turtledove-esque ALTERNATE HISTORY edition!


    I'm not touching that one at all.

     Reply
    crashedpc - Haifisch was starred crashedpc - Haifisch was unstarred
    Image of ticktockman ticktockman
    06/29/09

    @crashedpc : ゴキブリ and 蟑螂 division: I heard Turtledove is writing the next GI Joe adaptation, GI Joe: Rise of the South, Again.
     Reply
    ticktockman was starred ticktockman was unstarred
    Image of crashedpc - Haifisch crashedpc - Haifisch
    06/29/09

    @ticktockman: GI Joe, All Confederate Hero!
     Reply
    crashedpc - Haifisch was starred crashedpc - Haifisch was unstarred
    Image of Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H. Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H.
    06/29/09

    @crashedpc : ゴキブリ and 蟑螂 division: I'd read it.
     Reply
    Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H. was starred Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H. was unstarred
    Image of twophrasebark twophrasebark
    06/29/09

    In reply to io9's Hivemind Reviews The Terminator 4 Novelization
    You can't help but wonder if Foster, who's a great writer when he wants to be, wasn't mocking the whole story


    I read that Foster wrote the entire novel and then had to throw it out because the entire script changed. So maybe his heart wasn't in it?

     Reply
    twophrasebark was starred twophrasebark was unstarred
    Image of Moff Moff
    06/29/09

    @twophrasebark: Should have gotten a heart transplant from Marcus Wright, then.
     Reply
    Moff was starred Moff was unstarred
    Image of Grey_Area Grey_Area
    06/29/09

    @Moff: You paid twophrasebark for that setup, didn't you?
     Reply
    Grey_Area was starred Grey_Area was unstarred
    Image of crashedpc - Haifisch crashedpc - Haifisch
    06/29/09

    @Moff: Ahah, but that NEVER HAPPENED in the book! Foster must have been in denial this whole time. Self-induced delusion is such a wonderful thing.
     Reply
    crashedpc - Haifisch was starred crashedpc - Haifisch was unstarred
    Image of twophrasebark twophrasebark
    06/29/09

    @Moff:


    Ha!

     Reply
    twophrasebark was starred twophrasebark was unstarred
    Image of hhaller hhaller
    06/29/09

    In reply to io9's Hivemind Reviews The Terminator 4 Novelization
    Still holding out hope for a decent director's cut.
     Reply
    hhaller was starred hhaller was unstarred
    Image of Grey_Area Grey_Area
    06/29/09

    @hhaller: Or better still, a decent director.
     Reply
    Grey_Area was starred Grey_Area was unstarred
    Image of spiritkittykat spiritkittykat
    06/29/09

    In reply to io9's Hivemind Reviews The Terminator 4 Novelization
    I thought the novelization fleshed out parts of the story that were seriously missing. And I hated that about the movie.


    Now...I will watch the movie again because it has Terminators in it and because Sam Worthington is so darn cute!


    Compared to Transformers, this movie was fantastic.

     Reply
    spiritkittykat was starred spiritkittykat was unstarred
    Image of Grey_Area Grey_Area
    06/29/09

    @spiritkittykat: Waitaminit, you read this voluntarily on purpose?

    Wow kid, you got a lot of moxie!
     Reply
    Grey_Area was starred Grey_Area was unstarred
    Image of crashedpc - Haifisch crashedpc - Haifisch
    06/29/09

    @spiritkittykat: Damn, Friends of the Library already has a copy of this in stock? Awesome!
     Reply
    crashedpc - Haifisch was starred crashedpc - Haifisch was unstarred
    Image of Moff Moff
    06/29/09

    @Grey_Area: Alternately, we know what Alan Dean Foster's io9 handle is now. Eh, "spiritkittykat"?
     Reply
    Moff was starred Moff was unstarred
    Image of Grey_Area Grey_Area
    06/29/09

    @Moff: Ah ha!!
     Reply
    Grey_Area was starred Grey_Area was unstarred
    Image of crashedpc - Haifisch crashedpc - Haifisch
    06/29/09

    @Moff: Very nice.


     Reply
    crashedpc - Haifisch was starred crashedpc - Haifisch was unstarred
    Image of Grey_Area Grey_Area
    06/29/09

    In reply to io9's Hivemind Reviews The Terminator 4 Novelization
    The thing that I found really odd about the Golden Gate Bridge scene was that the toll booths are on the wrong end of the bridge. Perhaps it was an homage to Dustin Hoffman's arrival into SF across the Bay Bridge (on the wrong deck) at the beginning of The Graduate.
     Reply
    Grey_Area was starred Grey_Area was unstarred
    Image of braak braak
    06/29/09

    @Grey_Area: I am almost 100% positive that that's what it was.
     Reply
    braak was starred braak was unstarred
    Image of Grey_Area Grey_Area
    06/29/09

    @braak: I think that's why that one general on the submarine kept saying, "Plastics!"
     Reply
    Grey_Area was starred Grey_Area was unstarred
    Image of Kpibca Kpibca
    06/29/09

    In reply to io9's Hivemind Reviews The Terminator 4 Novelization
    Man, I wanna be in your guys' little group. That would be so rad.
     Reply
    Kpibca was starred Kpibca was unstarred
    Image of Lassus Lassus
    06/29/09

    @Autobot Kpibca: I can't even get a damn star.
     Reply
    Lassus was starred Lassus was unstarred
    Image of crashedpc - Haifisch crashedpc - Haifisch
    06/29/09

    @Lassus: Three words: Suitcase of cash.
     Reply
    crashedpc - Haifisch was starred crashedpc - Haifisch was unstarred
    Image of Grey_Area Grey_Area
    06/29/09

    @Autobot Kpibca: Not so rad. We meet in crashedpc's "pleasure bunker". It smells awful and his mom's band practices upstairs REAL LOUD all the time.
     Reply
    Grey_Area was starred Grey_Area was unstarred
    Image of crashedpc - Haifisch crashedpc - Haifisch
    06/29/09

    @Grey_Area: You didn't seem to complain when my mom served those little pinwheel sammiches that you kept hogging and moaning over.
     Reply
    crashedpc - Haifisch was starred crashedpc - Haifisch was unstarred
    Image of Grey_Area Grey_Area
    06/29/09

    @crashedpc : ゴキブリ and 蟑螂 division: I ate them too fast and forgot to take the toothpicks out first.
     Reply
    Grey_Area was starred Grey_Area was unstarred
    Image of crashedpc - Haifisch crashedpc - Haifisch
    06/29/09

    @Grey_Area: THAT explains why there was so much blood in the bathroom! Phew, I thought the drummer in mom's band had a woman moment in there.
     Reply
    crashedpc - Haifisch was starred crashedpc - Haifisch was unstarred
    Image of PlaidNinja PlaidNinja
    06/29/09

    In reply to io9's Hivemind Reviews The Terminator 4 Novelization
    Seriously this site needs to dedicate at least double the time it spent trashing T4 to tearing Transformers:ROFL apart.


    As for the film being humorless... why is that such a bad thing?

     Reply
    PlaidNinja was starred PlaidNinja was unstarred
    Image of Alexis Alexis
    06/29/09

    @PlaidNinja: Charlie's review of ROTF took the steam out of any insult I could muster against the film. T4 still has at least another few weeks of hilarity.
     Reply
    Alexis was starred Alexis was unstarred
    Image of braak braak
    06/29/09

    In reply to io9's Hivemind Reviews The Terminator 4 Novelization
    I'm sorry. I couldn't read this post, on the grounds that I was too god-damn depressed that nobody sent ME one.
     Reply
    braak was starred braak was unstarred
    Image of Charlie Jane Anders Charlie Jane Anders
    06/29/09

    @braak: Oh no, sorry! Next time, I promise. You can be one of the main reviewers of the G.I. Joe novelization.
     Reply
    Charlie Jane Anders was starred Charlie Jane Anders was unstarred
    Image of Grey_Area Grey_Area
    06/29/09

    @braak: We thought you were to busy being an Old-Timey French Person!

    [threatquality.com]
     Reply
    Grey_Area was starred Grey_Area was unstarred
    Image of Alexis Alexis
    06/29/09

    @braak: Be careful what you wish for, sir, you might just get G.I. Joe.
     Reply
    Alexis was starred Alexis was unstarred
    Image of braak braak
    06/29/09

    @Grey_Area: It is true...I'd have had a hard time reading the Terminator Salvation novelization while wearing silk knickers.
     Reply
    braak was starred braak was unstarred
    Image of Grey_Area Grey_Area
    06/29/09

    @braak: And the theme music just doesn't sound right on a harpsichord.
     Reply
    Grey_Area was starred Grey_Area was unstarred
    Image of braak braak
    06/29/09

    @Grey_Area: Also, anyway, I was lying, of course I read the whole post.
     Reply
    braak was starred braak was unstarred
    Image of Grey_Area Grey_Area
    06/29/09

    @braak: Actors!
     Reply
    Grey_Area was starred Grey_Area was unstarred
    Image of crashedpc - Haifisch crashedpc - Haifisch
    06/29/09

    @braak: Isn't silk just the best?? My friend tells me that, anyway.


    No worries, we all had a hard time reading it, silk pantaloons or no.

     Reply
    crashedpc - Haifisch was starred crashedpc - Haifisch was unstarred
    Image of Elizabeth Weinbloom Elizabeth Weinbloom
    06/29/09

    @braak: @Belabras: Word. Let's start a support group for slighted commenters / formerly legit people.
     Reply
    Elizabeth Weinbloom was starred Elizabeth Weinbloom was unstarred
    Image of Grey_Area Grey_Area
    06/29/09

    @Elizabeth Weinbloom: As a slightly legit commenter I must remind you, she made us read a very mediocre book. This is not something to aspire too.
     Reply
    Grey_Area was starred Grey_Area was unstarred
    Image of crashedpc - Haifisch crashedpc - Haifisch
    06/29/09

    @Grey_Area: Do you remember how excited we all were when we got our books? "Oh man, I can't wait to see how one of our most favoritest authors ever is going to make T4 one of the best novelizations we have ever read"? Remember that funny feeling inside when you realized that was the biggest pile of horseshit ever? Ah, memories.
     Reply
    crashedpc - Haifisch was starred crashedpc - Haifisch was unstarred
    Image of Grey_Area Grey_Area
    06/29/09

    @crashedpc : ゴキブリ and 蟑螂 division: Godsdamnit, he wrote Splinter in the Mind's Eye!
     Reply
    Grey_Area was starred Grey_Area was unstarred
    Image of Moff Moff
    06/29/09

    @Grey_Area: I was thinking about reading that, as I recently discovered its existence after happening to acquire a copy of the Han Solo Adventures for free. That good, then?
     Reply
    Moff was starred Moff was unstarred
    Image of Annalee Newitz Annalee Newitz
    06/29/09

    @braak: Indeed. You are welcome to share our joy and sorrow as we work our way through the next novelization.
     Reply
    Annalee Newitz was starred Annalee Newitz was unstarred
    Image of Belabras ate my dingo! Belabras ate my dingo!
    06/29/09

    @Moff:

    Oh, it's a good read. Especially if you like a little brother/sister action.
     Reply
    Belabras ate my dingo! was starred Belabras ate my dingo! was unstarred
    Image of crashedpc - Haifisch crashedpc - Haifisch
    06/29/09

    @Belabras: ... is there something about Mrs. Moff that we need to know?
     Reply
    crashedpc - Haifisch was starred crashedpc - Haifisch was unstarred
    Image of Moff Moff
    06/29/09

    @crashedpc: [Shamefacedly] Her last name was Moff before we got married, too.
     Reply
    Moff was starred Moff was unstarred
    Image of Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H. Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H.
    06/29/09

    @braak: Same here. Bastards.
     Reply
    Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H. was starred Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H. was unstarred
    Image of Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H. Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H.
    06/29/09

    @Moff: Replonza. (Old joke about the book)
     Reply
    Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H. was starred Evil Tortie's Mom: R.O.A.C.H. was unstarred
    Image of Don't Make Me Ang Lee. You wouldn't like me when I'm Ang Lee. Don't Make Me Ang Lee. You wouldn't like me when I'm Ang Lee.
    04/07/09

    In reply to Greg Bear Solves Halo's Greatest Mystery
    Forerunners = crew of BSG.


    duh...

     Reply
    Don't Make Me Ang Lee. You wouldn't like me when I'm Ang Lee. was starred Don't Make Me Ang Lee. You wouldn't like me when I'm Ang Lee. was unstarred
    Image of ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H. ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H.
    04/07/09

    @Belabras Voted 5: See, I read the book and fell in love with the universe, played the games and decided they were fun, but had nothing at all to do with the books. also, I was trying to figure out what anything I was doing had to do with any of the overarching plotness, and whether the Halos were deathstars or stargates.
     Reply
    ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H. was starred ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H. was unstarred
    Image of Pessimippopotamus Pessimippopotamus
    04/07/09

    In reply to Greg Bear Solves Halo's Greatest Mystery
    I love the Halo mythology. Many others hate it. But in any case, for a storyline for a shooter game, it's come pretty far.
     Reply
    Pessimippopotamus was starred Pessimippopotamus was unstarred
    Image of ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H. ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H.
    04/07/09

    @Pessimippopotamus is at 0% productivity: I love the mythology, I hate that it is not explored in the games.
     Reply
    ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H. was starred ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H. was unstarred
    Image of Pessimippopotamus Pessimippopotamus
    04/07/09

    @ggodo: That's what the books were for, silly.
     Reply
    Pessimippopotamus was starred Pessimippopotamus was unstarred
    Image of Slatz_Grobnik Slatz_Grobnik
    04/07/09

    @Pessimippopotamus is at 0% productivity: I get funny looks when I say it, but I totally agree. Even the tone and feel of the SF is spot on, and something somewhat rare for the form.
     Reply
    Slatz_Grobnik was starred Slatz_Grobnik was unstarred
    Image of Pessimippopotamus Pessimippopotamus
    04/07/09

    @Slatz_Grobnik: It's the tone. Fo sho. It's the tone.
     Reply
    Pessimippopotamus was starred Pessimippopotamus was unstarred
    Image of ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H. ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H.
    04/07/09

    In reply to Greg Bear Solves Halo's Greatest Mystery
    Wasn't it implied that the Forerunners were just humans a Long, Long time ago? They went through the ringworld to a new Floodless universe. Maybe? I only read the first book and played the games, none of them made any sense after the first.
     Reply
    ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H. was starred ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H. was unstarred
    Image of Johnny Dactyl Johnny Dactyl
    04/07/09

    @ggodo: They created the flood, built the rings to contain them, stored all the DNA to all life in the galaxy into said rings, built uber death laser into rings so when activated it would wipe all life (now flood infected), including themselves from the galaxy and seed it anew.


    The one huge flaw is why bother to preserve the thing you're trying to kill?

     Reply
    Johnny Dactyl was starred Johnny Dactyl was unstarred
    Image of Pessimippopotamus Pessimippopotamus
    04/07/09

    @Finstern: The biggest flaw was that despite destroying all sentient life in the Galaxy, the Flood still survived, making the Halo event pointless. Maybe they could only be contained, and not destroyed?


    I'm sure he'll delve into the origin of the Flood as well.

     Reply
    Pessimippopotamus was starred Pessimippopotamus was unstarred
    Image of TehLastTimeLord TehLastTimeLord
    04/07/09

    @Finstern: It's theorized they had the flood in containment while studying them, but ran out of time to eliminate the few they had locked up due to unforeseen reasons (maybe they had to activate the rings sooner than they anticipated?). This of course resulted in the flood escaping and running rampant on Delta Halo (from Halo 2) well before humans/Convenant landed there, though how a Gravemind formed and then sat waiting for thousands and thousands of years on that particular installation is something I still don't quite understand....
     Reply
    TehLastTimeLord was starred TehLastTimeLord was unstarred
    Image of Johnny Dactyl Johnny Dactyl
    04/07/09

    @TehLastTimeLord: I think gravemind probably started out as an infected sentient and then over the thousands of millennia he fed off plants (constantly regenerating) and stuff to survive. what is crazy is that he formed on delta halo and once you gets off it hes suddenly in command of all the flood in the galaxy.


    If you read all the terminals in halo 3 you get a glimpse of an AI that seems to be infected by the gravemind, really interesting stuff.

     Reply
    Johnny Dactyl was starred Johnny Dactyl was unstarred
    Image of TehLastTimeLord TehLastTimeLord
    04/07/09

    @Finstern: I thought the Gravemind could only form after infecting a significant amount of sentient life? Also, it's not surprising that it's in command of all the Flood, I suppose - they basically went right on the warpath against the Covenant and then Earth as soon as they got off the Halo, never having time to really sit back in one spot/spots and create multiple creatures (unless I missed something, or I'm completely wrong).


    I also thought the AI came to the conclusion itself to do what it did during the Forerunner's Great War, and then had 100,000 years to repent and feel remorse and stuff. Hm. I'll have to re-read those terminals.

     Reply
    TehLastTimeLord was starred TehLastTimeLord was unstarred
    Image of ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H. ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H.
    04/07/09

    @Finstern: Then what happened in Halo 3? where the hell did the Chief go? Where did you get that information? I don't recall it being anywhere in the games, but they really aren't known for they're storytelling.
     Reply
    ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H. was starred ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H. was unstarred
    Image of Johnny Dactyl Johnny Dactyl
    04/07/09

    @TehLastTimeLord: I think you definatly understand the gravemind more than I do lol but I'm definitely sure there were two A.Is in the game and one was going to the dark side.
     Reply
    Johnny Dactyl was starred Johnny Dactyl was unstarred
    Image of ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H. ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H.
    04/07/09

    @Finstern: you guys got the terminals to work? I found three, an only one did anything.
     Reply
    ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H. was starred ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H. was unstarred
    Image of Slatz_Grobnik Slatz_Grobnik
    04/07/09

    @TehLastTimeLord: I don't know about the Gravemind issue, but there's at least a narrative logic to the Flood's survival. When there's a weapon meant to destroy all of life, probably the safest place you can hide is on the weapon itself.
     Reply
    Slatz_Grobnik was starred Slatz_Grobnik was unstarred
    Image of zenpoet zenpoet
    04/08/09

    @Finstern: They didn't create the flood, only succumbed to it.


    [blog.ascendantjustice.com]

     Reply
    zenpoet was starred zenpoet was unstarred
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