Well, I'm actually happy that his response to the film was good-natured humor rather than anger. Lets me know that he's not full of shit.
I've been studying the concepts of Buddhism recently (which is actually more of a philosophy rather than a religion,) and I've got to say, there's definite merit in his ideas, but, interestingly enough, there's no way we'd ever convince a group of soldiers that embraced those ideas fully to ever participate in any sort of warfare again. #firstearthbattalion
@Smeagol92055: It all depends on how you define religion, I guess.
If it's defined as worship of the supernatural, then Buddhism tends to be generally less religious than what we're familiar with from mainstream Christianity.
If you define religion as "re + ligare," "to reconnect," with reality as it is, then certain forms of Buddhism are very religious.
It all depends on which form of Buddhism you're talking about, though. There's a big difference between Theravada and Pure Land, for example.
The core concepts are the same, but the interpretations are wildly different.
Out of curiosity, what sort of Buddhism have you been studying? #firstearthbattalion
@Smeagol92055: That's true. Theravada is probably the most philosophical form, followed by Zen.
I started with Theravada as well, when I got into insight meditation.
The thing I love about it is that it's like a diagnosis. The Four Noble Truths identify the problem of suffering; and the Eightfold path is the prescription / remedy.
Whatever your interest in it, I wish you the best of luck, with metta! #firstearthbattalion
@Jrsy Devil's Advocate®: I never actually saw TGOC. It was yanked from everywhere before I could watch it. In retrospect, I understand that's a good thing. #firstearthbattalion
I read a fascinating book on the effect that killing ones fellow man (and being in a position where one must constantly be ready to kill) has on soldiers. If yoga and meditation can help eliminate that I'm all for it. #firstearthbattalion
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: Yoga is the most relaxing thing I've ever done, so maybe.
Meditation also effects the brain according to brain scans on monks doing it, so the combination might actually work. #firstearthbattalion
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: I was watching a documentary about ancient warfare in the Bible on the History channel. It pointed out that the Bible didn't allow soldiers returning from battle to return to their home villages until they had gone through something like a 7 day period to become "clean". I think the effect of war on the psyche was something that ancient societies understood but our society has somewhat forgotten. We tend to take our returning soldiers and dump back in home and act surprised when they have trouble returning to civilian life. #firstearthbattalion
@Bill-Lee: It gets even more complicated when 'going to war' means sitting in a warehouse down the street and piloting a UAV halfway around the world. Those remote kills can take a larger toll on your psyche than most other forms of combat.
Think about it. Instead of facing your enemy face to face in the battlefield - killing them when they're trying to kill you - you seek them out when they're on their smoke break using a video stream that's high def enough to make out their expressions, mannerisms, things that make them seem human. Then you push a button and kill them.
I imagine it would take more than a few days come back to reality after that. #firstearthbattalion
@Gann: Actually, the book I was reading refuted that idea. Navy soldiers have a markedly lower psychiatric casualty percentage because they can think of the people they are killing as "subjects" or "marks" rather than actual people.
Studies have shown that the closer one gets to one's victim the greater the trauma to the killer. #firstearthbattalion
@Illogic: The effects are different depending on the type of meditation, of course, but in general it allows a person to slow down their thoughts enough to have better control over their emotional reactions. Which could be extremely useful in dealing with PTSD and other psychological problems soldiers face.
The problem though is that meditation works much better as a preventative measure. You really have to be doing it regularly for several years to get the best benefit out of it. It's much harder to learn after the damage is done. #firstearthbattalion
@Bill-Lee: That makes a lot of sense actually. Although they didn't have war (or even a word for it), the Australian Aborigines of Groote Eylandt would isolate people in mourning.
If someone close to you died, for example, you and other close kin would be left alone for several days, while other members of the community would bring food and other necessities.
I don't know if people in mourning were considered "unclean" exactly, but were regarded as being connected to spiritual forces and death, and so were dangerous to be around until they'd had time to grieve. #firstearthbattalion
@Gann: There's also the fairly famous Milgram conformity experiment, which found that when people were instructed to harm strangers, they were a lot more likely to question those instructions when they could see and hear the victim; which suggests it was more stressful to do so.
@Grey_Area: It's what the first thirty minutes of 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY is about: weaponization of tools. (I was actually kidding when I started to type this, then I realized it was true.)
did you seriously just compare a hostage standoff in russia to the war in vietnam? as if there's even an ethics issue with using a non-leathal riot control agent in a war. let me break it down realy simple, using a lethal toxic gas to flush terrorists out of a building that still has hostages in it, bad. using a non-leath gas to flush enemy troops out of cover and/or concealment during a war, perfectly fine. they're not even remotely comperable.
@tetracycloide: The russians were under the assumption that the fentanyl mixture wasn't concentrated enough to be lethal, as I understand. Then they fucked it up and russians often do, and lots of civilians died. Then to top it all off, the terrorists that were actually put to sleep and not simply killed were just up and shot.
But they were operating with this gas as if it was a non-lethal substance, so the category is the same.
@Blue_Thark: It's just like any other technology, you can't challenge the ethics of it withouth challenging the ethics of guns. If that use is not acceptable, then the use of weapons itself is not.
I only know of one instance where somebody refrained from using a weapon because it killed too many people too fast, and it was during the american Civil War (the Gatling gun), but it's just naive to think any army is going to refrain to use anything against their foreign enemies without anybody telling them to, or even with everybody telling them to.
I'm sorry but controlling how the military uses technology is not in the scientists' hands, and no matter what they invent, a military use will probably be figured out for it.
@Blue_Thark: that's not the part that makes it a non-issue ethics wise. the part where it was a war makes it a non-issue ethics wise. many lasers are non-leathal tools that increase the effectiveness of conventional weapons. are laser guided missles an 'ethics issue' when employed by an army against another army during time of war?
@Pope John Peeps II: there's still a massive juxtoposition of scenarios there. there's a large degree of difference between a war and a hostage standoff.
@Dirk Angry: well, there are exceptions for particularly painful or devestating weapons. white phospherous and nuclear weapons as examples. employing a non-leathal tool that increases the effectiveness of ordinary, conventional weapons is par for the course. what is a laser guided missle if not a non-leathal laser making a conventional missle more effective?
@Dirk Angry: I'm pretty sure a basic assumption of this article is that the use of any technology-- weapon or no-- for hostile purposes is ethically dubious. Scientists do what they do to benefit humanity, which is usually counter to the practice of killing people.
This article is singling out bioengineering because there seems to be a disproportionate trend of using discoveries in that area to do exactly what you mentioned: Kill more people faster. I don't think anyone is suggesting that the military stop doing their jobs (regardless of ethical qualms...) The point is that these particular scientists have a greater onus of complicity on them which they should be more aware of.
@tetracycloide: I'll admit it, you do make a compelling argument there. I think they're making bioscience a special case, though, since it can be applied so directly and effectively at harming or manipulating people.
What difference would it make if scientists thought about the military applications of their research? The research is made for other purposes. Lets throw away antibiotics and outlaw vaccination, because in connection with the disease they can be weaponized.
The demand for scientists to consider the possible military/political use of their research leads to nothing but the complete package of the research and its possible nefarious uses delivered by the people who know more about it than anybody else.
You want to use new science in a detrimental manner to the public good, you have to think about how to go about it yourself.
The problem is that there is always going to be someone who is going to try to use whatever the scientific community is working on for military purposes. The best defense is to come up with it first, figure out how to undermine it, then keep that technology for yourself. I may not trust my government very much with that power, but I trust them more than the other guys governments.
@Westender: This is bullshit. The only safe knowledge is widely disseminated knowledge. If everybody knows about it, the value of a weapon, whatever form it takes, goes simultaniously up and down. The value for attack goes down, since the shared knowledge also provides the means to counteract this weapon. The value for defense goes up, since the would-be attacker has to deal with the threat of this weapon.
If only the USA had known how to build the bomb, lots of the world would be pretty "hot" by now.
I think this problem needs to be broken up into two issues:
1) Yes, scientists should be more aware of the implications of their work. To not think about such things is either laziness or purposeful ignorance.
2) There is always going to be research carried out that has results which could be used for violent or harmful purpose. Part of understanding something (like a biological system) involves knowing how it doesn’t work or what makes it stop working. Wanting to stop these kinds of results would basically mean stopping a huge amount of research (particularly medical research).
Basically, it’s important to hold scientist responsible for their results. It’s also important to hold the people misusing the results responsible. No one party can take all the blame when research is used for evil and we need better control or regulations for biological and chemical weapons. The final point the author makes , that "all use of novel non-lethal agents such as fentanyl for law enforcement should be prohibited, or at least heavily restricted" is spot on.
This seems like a pretty obvious observation. Any kind of technology can be weaponized. The internet makes it easier for people to coordinate bombings. Internal combustion engines make it possible to build tanks. Space travel makes space warfare feasible. Electricity lets you zap people with fucking Tesla coils.
I've often wondered about the apparent inability of the majority of scientists to conceive of their research in anything but a Best Altruistic Case scenario. Are they naive, willfully self-desceptive, or just so invested in their research that they refuse to acknowledge the darker implications it may have? Even those that are able to consider illegal or lethal uses for their research usually come up with the standard dodge of "The research is neither good not bad; it's what people do with it that makes it bad."
Please. When I read a news article about scientific research I immediate consider how athletes, the wealthy, and/or militaries can capitalize on it. You guys got to try a different perspective from time to time.
@WindowlickinDaywalker: As a scientist (with a minor in philosophy), I'm actually astounded by how inarticulately naive many scientists truly are when confronted with the socio-political implications inherent in the research they conduct. I've tried to raise issues like these among my fellow scientists, and I've been met with statements like, "You think too much," which is ironic and rather disturbing to hear when it comes from a fellow 'scientist', whom one might consider to be building a career out of carefully laid 'thoughts'.
In other words, most scientists don't have a fucking clue what their doing anymore than cog in a machine does.
@botanicidal: I have to say, I read "As a scientist" and immediately thought "Damn, did I ever set myself up for this..." But, wow. I'm a bit disturbed now.
@WindowlickinDaywalker: I blame the educational system that exists for scientists: it's all science and very little social science, so most of the people in science have very little comprehension of any interaction between science (in either a basic research or applied science sense). But there is also truth behind the statement that a lot of people in the arts and social sciences don't have any concept of how science works. I'm coming from a very interdisciplinary background, so I can see the giant gaping rift of overlap and understanding between both the arts and sciences. It's really quite sad and makes me think that if this educational situation continues further, our species is doomed.
I wish Frank Herbert and and Isaac Asimov were still here. :/
11/05/09
I've been studying the concepts of Buddhism recently (which is actually more of a philosophy rather than a religion,) and I've got to say, there's definite merit in his ideas, but, interestingly enough, there's no way we'd ever convince a group of soldiers that embraced those ideas fully to ever participate in any sort of warfare again. #firstearthbattalion
11/05/09
If it's defined as worship of the supernatural, then Buddhism tends to be generally less religious than what we're familiar with from mainstream Christianity.
If you define religion as "re + ligare," "to reconnect," with reality as it is, then certain forms of Buddhism are very religious.
It all depends on which form of Buddhism you're talking about, though. There's a big difference between Theravada and Pure Land, for example.
The core concepts are the same, but the interpretations are wildly different.
Out of curiosity, what sort of Buddhism have you been studying? #firstearthbattalion
11/05/09
I agree that it's a religion, but you can take away the religious aspects of it to reflect on the philosophy behind the message. #firstearthbattalion
11/05/09
I started with Theravada as well, when I got into insight meditation.
The thing I love about it is that it's like a diagnosis. The Four Noble Truths identify the problem of suffering; and the Eightfold path is the prescription / remedy.
Whatever your interest in it, I wish you the best of luck, with metta! #firstearthbattalion
11/05/09
11/05/09
haha yeah: D #firstearthbattalion
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11/06/09
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11/05/09
You heathen. #firstearthbattalion
11/05/09
11/05/09
Y'know, in a hetero way. #firstearthbattalion
11/05/09
11/05/09
Meditation also effects the brain according to brain scans on monks doing it, so the combination might actually work. #firstearthbattalion
11/05/09
11/05/09
Think about it. Instead of facing your enemy face to face in the battlefield - killing them when they're trying to kill you - you seek them out when they're on their smoke break using a video stream that's high def enough to make out their expressions, mannerisms, things that make them seem human. Then you push a button and kill them.
I imagine it would take more than a few days come back to reality after that. #firstearthbattalion
11/05/09
Studies have shown that the closer one gets to one's victim the greater the trauma to the killer. #firstearthbattalion
11/05/09
[www.airforcetimes.com] #firstearthbattalion
11/05/09
[www.amazon.com] #firstearthbattalion
11/05/09
11/05/09
The problem though is that meditation works much better as a preventative measure. You really have to be doing it regularly for several years to get the best benefit out of it. It's much harder to learn after the damage is done. #firstearthbattalion
11/05/09
If someone close to you died, for example, you and other close kin would be left alone for several days, while other members of the community would bring food and other necessities.
I don't know if people in mourning were considered "unclean" exactly, but were regarded as being connected to spiritual forces and death, and so were dangerous to be around until they'd had time to grieve. #firstearthbattalion
11/05/09
[en.wikipedia.org]
11/06/09
11/05/09
11/05/09
10/15/09
A real life LightSaber
#military
08/20/09
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08/20/09
How does that not make it an ethics issue?
08/20/09
But they were operating with this gas as if it was a non-lethal substance, so the category is the same.
08/20/09
I only know of one instance where somebody refrained from using a weapon because it killed too many people too fast, and it was during the american Civil War (the Gatling gun), but it's just naive to think any army is going to refrain to use anything against their foreign enemies without anybody telling them to, or even with everybody telling them to.
I'm sorry but controlling how the military uses technology is not in the scientists' hands, and no matter what they invent, a military use will probably be figured out for it.
08/20/09
@Pope John Peeps II: there's still a massive juxtoposition of scenarios there. there's a large degree of difference between a war and a hostage standoff.
@Dirk Angry: well, there are exceptions for particularly painful or devestating weapons. white phospherous and nuclear weapons as examples. employing a non-leathal tool that increases the effectiveness of ordinary, conventional weapons is par for the course. what is a laser guided missle if not a non-leathal laser making a conventional missle more effective?
08/20/09
This article is singling out bioengineering because there seems to be a disproportionate trend of using discoveries in that area to do exactly what you mentioned: Kill more people faster. I don't think anyone is suggesting that the military stop doing their jobs (regardless of ethical qualms...) The point is that these particular scientists have a greater onus of complicity on them which they should be more aware of.
08/20/09
08/20/09
The demand for scientists to consider the possible military/political use of their research leads to nothing but the complete package of the research and its possible nefarious uses delivered by the people who know more about it than anybody else.
You want to use new science in a detrimental manner to the public good, you have to think about how to go about it yourself.
08/20/09
08/20/09
If only the USA had known how to build the bomb, lots of the world would be pretty "hot" by now.
08/20/09
08/20/09
This is truly unheard of on the internet.
08/20/09
08/20/09
1) Yes, scientists should be more aware of the implications of their work. To not think about such things is either laziness or purposeful ignorance.
2) There is always going to be research carried out that has results which could be used for violent or harmful purpose. Part of understanding something (like a biological system) involves knowing how it doesn’t work or what makes it stop working. Wanting to stop these kinds of results would basically mean stopping a huge amount of research (particularly medical research).
Basically, it’s important to hold scientist responsible for their results. It’s also important to hold the people misusing the results responsible. No one party can take all the blame when research is used for evil and we need better control or regulations for biological and chemical weapons. The final point the author makes , that "all use of novel non-lethal agents such as fentanyl for law enforcement should be prohibited, or at least heavily restricted" is spot on.
08/20/09
08/20/09
08/20/09
08/20/09
08/20/09
Please. When I read a news article about scientific research I immediate consider how athletes, the wealthy, and/or militaries can capitalize on it. You guys got to try a different perspective from time to time.
08/20/09
In other words, most scientists don't have a fucking clue what their doing anymore than cog in a machine does.
08/20/09
08/20/09
I wish Frank Herbert and and Isaac Asimov were still here. :/
08/20/09