i don't know if anyone is interested, but in related news i read about this group who map where free food grows in my city of Auckland. I know foraging is a growing trend here, and the map is 'growing' every day (There is even a facebook group!)
so.. hang on.. what.. is this true? in the US you HAVE to pay a corporation a percenatgeof your profit if you growand sell your own vege???????????????? thats messed up #pharmaceuticals
@LittleDragon: I recently ate a dish at a vegan restaurant called "mac and yease" because they used yeast instead of cheese. Tasty dish. Poorly titled. #pharmaceuticals
This is just one reason why I personally have stopped buying any new movies from this lame bigwig greedy industry.you will not get my business for years and if I need a movie bad enough I can buy it used.
And so you guys know I do buy all scifi TV Shows we love brand new and support my shows.I own a ton of new legal TV scifis like all stargates,farscape,trek,etc.
I keep reading these studios trying hard to put big brother on us and quoting from their lying papers claiming losses,etc which is all a bunch of BS.
You guys need to research this subject good cause we can all be effected by these greedbags.
And how many of these studios have ripped us off by price fixing,DRM KRAP,stealing from their artists,etc.
I support indie fimmaking and have a big hate for Hollywood.
Do your research well. #startrek
What this all boils down to is that no one in the media seems to understand the fable of Pandora's Box. It's out there. You can't stop it. It would be smarter to adapt to the new market than force everyone back into the box. #startrek
@superberg: And some services have found the perfect niche. When I lived abroad, I pirated a fair amount of stuff, just to have English things to watch, and since the only other option was to go to the corner shops and buy DVDs which were also pirated anyway (this was in Moscow).
However, since moving back to the States, thanks to the magic of (free!) Hulu, and (not free, but cheap, and very speedy!) Netflix, I legitimately have legal access to anything I could possibly ever want to watch, making torrents unnecessary except for particularly rare/lost things, that would probably be unfindable legally anyway. #startrek
@bakana: This is true. Netflix and Hulu are both excellent examples of how the industry should move forward.
A second thought I had regarding this piracy issue: how many people would have bought the Star Trek DVD/Blu-Ray if it was available right now? Why do movie studios insist on making their customers wait 6 months to buy a movie after seeing it in a theatre?
Sorry, I just don't have a lot of pity for companies that look for ways to arbitrarily control their customers. There are all sorts of movies I would have added to my collection months ago if they were already available. By the same token, how many people would have bought Star Trek, if there was no piracy? The numbers don't necessarily correlate, and some research says people who pirate buy more than the average consumer, IIRC. #startrek
Just another example of a big business whining because the public doesn't want to play it's game anymore. Get with the future, Paramount.
If people truly enjoy a product and can afford it, they'll pay for it. You can't really fault them for trying it out before they buy, or for not being wealthy enough to pay inflated prices for things.
Seriously--Paramount is whining over Star Trek... which is a movie about a society where money doesn't matter anymore. Maybe they should work toward that, instead of clinging to outmoded and petty practices, like a bunch of whiny children.
If they keep it up, people will just ignore them. I mean, there are many other ways to create culture and pass the time besides movies made by big Hollywood studios. #startrek
@twophrasebark: How are DVRs making TV content producers and networks rich? The concern about DVRs lies in the devaluation of advertising. How has the worry regarding this been proven unfounded, as you seem to suggest?
@Pinkhamster: Enough people still watch the ads on prerecorded content that now that networks are starting to pay attention they can use estimated DVR viewings to more accurately reflect (or artificially pad) the # of viewers who watch their shows. More viewers=more appealing to advertisers=more money for networks. #startrek
@Pinkhamster: What Vinylrake said. A recent study shows that about half of viewers watch the commercials on DVRs even though they could skip them. New Nielsen data is showing that some shows that they thought were hits are even bigger hits than they thought - and some shows they thought were mediocre are doing better than they believed.
Instead of hurting the industry the DVR is turning out to be a good friend to the industry. Perhaps my expression "making us rich" could have been finer-tuned, but the point is Hollywood regularly regards new technology as a threat and such technologies eventually end up benefiting the industry... #startrek
The DVD will still sell bucketloads - if anything the average "pirate" wont consider downloading the film as a replacement for a dvd/blu-ray on a bit high-def TV. Christmas is coming, and this film is going to make them even more money, with or without piracy. #startrek
@Davio: Well, you can easily download the blueray image.
Then again, I think most of us actually would prefer to pay and get the box. Also most people aren't so savvy they can download, burn the image, play it in their player. Yes I know this is hard to believe but it is true! #startrek
"Wa wa, technology is outstripping our business plan, we learned nothing from from the music industry, pass laws so we don't ever have to change how we run things!"
@Belabras ate my dingo!: Explain to me what part of their business plan is at fault here. These are pirates, so the only part I can see is that Paramount enjoys charging money for things it produces. #startrek
@Belabras ate my dingo!: That doesn't mean they weren't right. VHS did have a big impact on piracy just like the MP3 and CD burners. While they do have innocent purposes--especially something like broadband--that doesn't mean that no protections are reasonable. #startrek
@OW-Holmes: Bringer of Fear:
And what I'm saying is that these entities seem to fight innovation rather than embrace it. They put up a huge legal fight when VHS happened, and they are doing the same now, and to me this seems like the exact wrong reaction. Limiting your consumer base's options isn't a long term strategy, and both then and now the effect of piracy (though of course real) was exaggerated to bolster their legal fight. And then, as now, it didn't work.
Rather than fight the same losing battle again and again, it might make more sense for the big content creators to try to get ahead of, or at least abreast of the technology wave and try to make new methods of distribution work for them, instead of trying to shut them down. #startrek
@Belabras ate my dingo!: Though it may not be a long term strategy, I imagine its likely cheaper to fight the technology than to embrace it.
If we all used DVD players than Paramount only has to deal with creation of DVDs. That means the digital and phsyical production of the DVDs. If they try to get ahead of the game (say with new cool digital distribution system where you can put your face on Kirk's body) they would have to make new arrangements with these new producers. The negotiating is costly and riskier considering they don't have a historical valuation system. Additionally, not everyone can afford or wants the new technology so they have to keep the arrangements with the old technology producers. If they slow down the spread of the new technology they can better determine what kind of market share they can affectively achieve. That doesn't even include the new production methods they would have to introduce themselves. For example, with the creation of DVDs now every movie comes with a behind the scenes documentary with director commentary, a new feature that is costly and difficult to value.
As a consumer I agree with you 100%. I wish they would support the newest technology so I could have Netflix streamed into my brain. But change is expensive and companies don't like doing it when they don't see the percentage. #startrek
@OW-Holmes: Bringer of Fear:
I can totally see your point, but I think the main problem is 'profit now' versus 'profit in the forseable future'. The current strategy will at least slow profit loss for some years, but it also means that the way is open for some other player that does embrace new technology and media delivery systems to steal the initiative and thereby destroy old school revenue streams. Fighting the future isn't a viable long term strategy. #startrek
@Belabras ate my dingo!: Yes. Trying to prevent new methods of distribution is futile. Rather than pay your lawyers huge sums of money to fight a losing battle, invest in technology and try new things like day zero releases or streaming digital media.
In these 5 million downloads there are three types of "pirates:"
1) Those actively trying to steal and make a profit off of it. These are relatively few and are best dealt with via criminal actions, not civil. They laugh at DRM and you won't find many in the USA so you can't sue them. Why waste resources. Just call it shrinkage ad lobby the police to do their job - just like a brick and mortar store.
2) Those who will only take the media for free and would never pay for it. These people are impossible to stop. You can give them new obstacles, but they will find ways around them. These are probably a minority although the studios would have you believe otherwise. Chasing these people is futile as even if you catch them, they still won't buy the product, so you still ahve not sold them anything. You have only spent money.
3) The rest. The majority. These people would pay for it if you made it cheap/easy/attractive but they either are too impatient or lazy to do it legally. As a media company, can't you find a way to make boatloads of money off lazy, impatient people? Rather than sue these people and alienate them since they are truly potential customers, focus all your efforts on making these people happy and you will come out ahead.
Don't know why the media companies can't figure this out. #startrek
@Belabras ate my dingo!: But it isn't profit now versus profit tomorrow. New technology doesn't have to happen. While VHS was certainly a boon to the industry in the long run digital distribution or the next big thing doesn't have to be. If somehow movie producers destroyed BluRay I think we'd all still be happy with DVD and still continue to buy more. Unless they can create new technologies that give them a higher profit, it may not be in their best interest to promote new technology. #startrek
@Dr Emilio Lizardo: I'm one of those lazy, impatient people. Hulu works for me because it's easy, but they have what they consider the maximum commercial time for the format and it's not really enough to support the content. If they went to TV-length ads on Hulu, I would be one of those people who abandoned it. If there's a future in that market, it must be something like Netflix on demand. I pay $10/month now for a decently large array of streaming content, and would pay more if I could get everything I wanted (film & TV). Other people? Maybe not. The difference with internet versus previous technology is the ceaselessly vast amount of "free" content easily-accessible to novices. #startrek
@OW-Holmes: Bringer of Fear: But there will be new tech. Whether it's watching on your cell phone or beamed directly into your brain or who knows what. You can fight the future or you can shape it. #startrek
@small-fox: So instead of suing you for piracy, take the millions they pay the lawyers, give it to the market researchers and figure out what you will pay for and how much you will pay for it. There is profit potential in that. If they sue, only the lawyers win. #startrek
@OW-Holmes: Bringer of Fear:
I think it's less about making more profit than it is about not losing profit as their audience moves away from the old models. #startrek
@Dr Emilio Lizardo: @OW-Holmes: Bringer of Fear: @Belabras ate my dingo!: First I really wish I could promote all of your comments it is so nice to structured and well thought out criticism and rebuttals without the usual hair pulling and immature name calling. I applaud all of you. #startrek
@Dr Emilio Lizardo: They're probably doing that, too, and if they're not they're unbelievably stupid, but the laws are still the laws and that's a separate issue from market research. Completely changing a business model overnight is a big deal, and presumably they're trying to buy some time before they have to be completely adapted to the internet and making things like Hulu self-sustaining and profitable. I take issue with attempts to infringe net neutrality, but I can't really whine if I get legitimately busted for downloading that copy of Emma because PBS is waiting until 2010 to air it in the States. (And yes, I will be buying it on DVD, like most things I initially steal.) Copyright doesn't care if the copyright holders could make more money doing X instead of Y. Copyright wholly protects the holder's right to control release of the content. #startrek
@Dr Emilio Lizardo: There doesn't have to be new technology. If VHS was found to be more for the purpose of illegal use then that would have killed the VHS market and likely portable media. The case was actually pretty close and the language was broad enough so it would have destroyed CD burners, youtube, and much more. You can have one big fight and win the future.
And I think the lazy community is likely the minority. Considering the uproar when Hulu hinted at possibly charging money, I think the "wont pay a dime for it" community is the bigger chunk. #startrek
@small-fox: Many of those laws (DMCA) exist because the media companies bought them. They bought them legally, but they exist because the media companies wanted them to protect their business model, not becasue the publica was begging for them.
Hard to explain what I am saying here. These are still laws, they still deserve respect because they have been and are subject to the same processes as all other laws. But it is another example of the media companies fighting the future rather than trying to create it.
I guess it's the difference between saying "cars pollute, we should get rid of all the cars and bicycle" or "cars pollute, we need something just as cheap, convenient and efficient at moving people, but with less pollution." One tries to roll back the clock which won't happen, the other looks forward. #startrek
@Dr Emilio Lizardo: Basic copyright has nothing to do with DCMA. Copyright existed long before that, and unauthorized copy and distribution was illegal before DCMA. IP rights holders have lobbied and gotten better/longer/digital-specific protection, but the protections which cover copying and theft are in the country's founding documents. Digital might be the future, but *theft* is not, and piracy is theft. Whether or not companies take full advantage of the internet market piracy will always be illegal. I understand what you're saying, but taking advantage of a market is entirely different from trying to prevent your product from being stolen. There's no profit in theft. #startrek
@OW-Holmes: Bringer of Fear: There error is equating a 1:1 loss ratio for piracy:copies sold. Repeated studies (for music) show that 'pirates' purchase more than non-'pirates'. In their ignorance they are only going to eliminate customers. #startrek
@drukus: You are right that there isn't a 1:1 loss. It is only the marginal sales that are lost (I would have bought this CD but for the availability of easy pirating). Making piracy harder however will reduce the number of marginal sales lost--if I have to run into a Target to steal Star Trek I likely wont do it.
Additionally, that study and your argument assumes piracy results in higher music sales. The likely case is higher interest in music results in higher sales and higher piracy. Also poor people can't afford digital piracy and lots of music. So the richer you are the more likely you are 1) going to have a computer and be able to easily pirate music and 2) going to be able to afford lots of music.
Going after pirates likely will not change peoples enjoyment of music. It will certainly have an affect on the income of the individual pirate (big judgments tend to do that). #startrek
@Belabras ate my dingo!: What they are really trying to do is stall for time in order to get ahead of the issue and see how far they can push the FCC and other agencies into doing their bidding. It's a typical business strategy for giant corporations with a lot of money on the line. It's good to be the king. #startrek
@Shini: R.O.A.C.H.: The 5 million people interested is a large fraction of the potential market. There are not 6.7 billion people interested in Hollywood. If you look up DVD sales the elite performers sell a few million units.
I think the general tone of the first replies is that you guys want your stuff for free. It's not free. There are tremendous costs in making these movies, the actors have salaries, the staff and camera crew have salaries. If you want advertising to be the only revenue source then reality TV will be the only profitable medium.
I used to pirate stuff, when I was a teenager and I had no money. If you're unemployed I don't mean to offend you. If you have a full-time job and you pirate cause you're cheap, stop with the BS and recognize you're part of the problem, part of the reason shows like firefly and sarah connor chronicles get canceled early.
@danataf: Ease up, son. I will admit, I was being a jackass with my comments, one might say I was making light of the article. It is obvious to me that the majority of 6.7 billion people don't care about Star Trek. My apologies if I gave the impression that I believe rural India is clamoring for the next JJ Abrams joint.
Since this is a touchy subject with you, let me be clear - I don't pirate movies. I am of the mindset that if it's not good enough to be paid for, it's not good enough to watch. Things might be different if I didn't live in the states, but that's how it is for me.
I'm glad that you have given up your life of crime, but don't fucking assume someone else is a criminal because you are. Seriously, do you think that piracy killed Firefly and TSCC? Really? Because I think that Fox's mismanagement of the series lead to poor viewer numbers, which caused some bean counter to recommend pulling the plug because they couldn't get enough ads sold.
@Cratilo: Box Office Mojo indicated they've only made about 33 million, give or take, on the worldwide theatrical release of Star Trek, which is why DVD sales are such a big deal to them.
@James Tiberius Clarke: Good on you, then. I always worry about remorsing on buying something that I haven't seen before, which is why I don't have that big a dvd collection. Hooray for guilt, yeah?
@tmcsweeney: I agree with you entirely. The entertainment industry is pretty damn broken and the data from those surveys that indicate pirates buy more music is thin, at best. I would love to see a larger study aimed at that done, preferably by a reasonably neutral party. #startrek
...or they could put the DVD out sooner & give people a reason to get it? I don't know, it seems like people are catching on to "making movies that people want to see on the big screen." So why not make DVDs people want to own? #startrek
11/06/09
[www.nzherald.co.nz]
edit: 'growing' was not originally intended as a pun, but after I posted I saw the relation. I guess my sub-concious wanted to express itself. :D
11/05/09
11/06/09
Nope.
Annalee's just being fanciful / prophetic.
-Kle. #pharmaceuticals
11/06/09
oh yes.. i see now. duh. #pharmaceuticals
11/05/09
Don't necessarily want to inadvertently shut down our favorite producers. Support local growers! #pharmaceuticals
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Do your Boritos have beans and cheese in them? #pharmaceuticals
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11/04/09
And so you guys know I do buy all scifi TV Shows we love brand new and support my shows.I own a ton of new legal TV scifis like all stargates,farscape,trek,etc.
I keep reading these studios trying hard to put big brother on us and quoting from their lying papers claiming losses,etc which is all a bunch of BS.
You guys need to research this subject good cause we can all be effected by these greedbags.
And how many of these studios have ripped us off by price fixing,DRM KRAP,stealing from their artists,etc.
I support indie fimmaking and have a big hate for Hollywood.
Do your research well. #startrek
11/04/09
[en.wikipedia.org] #startrek
11/05/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
However, since moving back to the States, thanks to the magic of (free!) Hulu, and (not free, but cheap, and very speedy!) Netflix, I legitimately have legal access to anything I could possibly ever want to watch, making torrents unnecessary except for particularly rare/lost things, that would probably be unfindable legally anyway. #startrek
11/04/09
A second thought I had regarding this piracy issue: how many people would have bought the Star Trek DVD/Blu-Ray if it was available right now? Why do movie studios insist on making their customers wait 6 months to buy a movie after seeing it in a theatre?
Sorry, I just don't have a lot of pity for companies that look for ways to arbitrarily control their customers. There are all sorts of movies I would have added to my collection months ago if they were already available. By the same token, how many people would have bought Star Trek, if there was no piracy? The numbers don't necessarily correlate, and some research says people who pirate buy more than the average consumer, IIRC. #startrek
11/04/09
If people truly enjoy a product and can afford it, they'll pay for it. You can't really fault them for trying it out before they buy, or for not being wealthy enough to pay inflated prices for things.
Seriously--Paramount is whining over Star Trek... which is a movie about a society where money doesn't matter anymore. Maybe they should work toward that, instead of clinging to outmoded and petty practices, like a bunch of whiny children.
If they keep it up, people will just ignore them. I mean, there are many other ways to create culture and pass the time besides movies made by big Hollywood studios. #startrek
11/04/09
Five years later:
Yay, VHS is making us rich!
DVRs are going to ruin the industry!!!
Five years later:
Yay, DVRs are making us rich!
Downloading is going to ruin the industry!!!
(to be continued)
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
Instead of hurting the industry the DVR is turning out to be a good friend to the industry. Perhaps my expression "making us rich" could have been finer-tuned, but the point is Hollywood regularly regards new technology as a threat and such technologies eventually end up benefiting the industry... #startrek
11/04/09
11/04/09
Then again, I think most of us actually would prefer to pay and get the box. Also most people aren't so savvy they can download, burn the image, play it in their player. Yes I know this is hard to believe but it is true! #startrek
11/04/09
I think I've heard this before. #startrek
11/04/09
11/04/09
Except that they forwarded roughly the same logic when VHS became widespread. #startrek
11/04/09
11/04/09
And what I'm saying is that these entities seem to fight innovation rather than embrace it. They put up a huge legal fight when VHS happened, and they are doing the same now, and to me this seems like the exact wrong reaction. Limiting your consumer base's options isn't a long term strategy, and both then and now the effect of piracy (though of course real) was exaggerated to bolster their legal fight. And then, as now, it didn't work.
Rather than fight the same losing battle again and again, it might make more sense for the big content creators to try to get ahead of, or at least abreast of the technology wave and try to make new methods of distribution work for them, instead of trying to shut them down. #startrek
11/04/09
If we all used DVD players than Paramount only has to deal with creation of DVDs. That means the digital and phsyical production of the DVDs. If they try to get ahead of the game (say with new cool digital distribution system where you can put your face on Kirk's body) they would have to make new arrangements with these new producers. The negotiating is costly and riskier considering they don't have a historical valuation system. Additionally, not everyone can afford or wants the new technology so they have to keep the arrangements with the old technology producers. If they slow down the spread of the new technology they can better determine what kind of market share they can affectively achieve. That doesn't even include the new production methods they would have to introduce themselves. For example, with the creation of DVDs now every movie comes with a behind the scenes documentary with director commentary, a new feature that is costly and difficult to value.
As a consumer I agree with you 100%. I wish they would support the newest technology so I could have Netflix streamed into my brain. But change is expensive and companies don't like doing it when they don't see the percentage. #startrek
11/04/09
I can totally see your point, but I think the main problem is 'profit now' versus 'profit in the forseable future'. The current strategy will at least slow profit loss for some years, but it also means that the way is open for some other player that does embrace new technology and media delivery systems to steal the initiative and thereby destroy old school revenue streams. Fighting the future isn't a viable long term strategy. #startrek
11/04/09
In these 5 million downloads there are three types of "pirates:"
1) Those actively trying to steal and make a profit off of it. These are relatively few and are best dealt with via criminal actions, not civil. They laugh at DRM and you won't find many in the USA so you can't sue them. Why waste resources. Just call it shrinkage ad lobby the police to do their job - just like a brick and mortar store.
2) Those who will only take the media for free and would never pay for it. These people are impossible to stop. You can give them new obstacles, but they will find ways around them. These are probably a minority although the studios would have you believe otherwise. Chasing these people is futile as even if you catch them, they still won't buy the product, so you still ahve not sold them anything. You have only spent money.
3) The rest. The majority. These people would pay for it if you made it cheap/easy/attractive but they either are too impatient or lazy to do it legally. As a media company, can't you find a way to make boatloads of money off lazy, impatient people? Rather than sue these people and alienate them since they are truly potential customers, focus all your efforts on making these people happy and you will come out ahead.
Don't know why the media companies can't figure this out. #startrek
11/04/09
In a word: YES.
Thank you. #startrek
11/04/09
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I think it's less about making more profit than it is about not losing profit as their audience moves away from the old models. #startrek
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
And I think the lazy community is likely the minority. Considering the uproar when Hulu hinted at possibly charging money, I think the "wont pay a dime for it" community is the bigger chunk. #startrek
11/04/09
Hard to explain what I am saying here. These are still laws, they still deserve respect because they have been and are subject to the same processes as all other laws. But it is another example of the media companies fighting the future rather than trying to create it.
I guess it's the difference between saying "cars pollute, we should get rid of all the cars and bicycle" or "cars pollute, we need something just as cheap, convenient and efficient at moving people, but with less pollution." One tries to roll back the clock which won't happen, the other looks forward. #startrek
11/04/09
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11/04/09
Additionally, that study and your argument assumes piracy results in higher music sales. The likely case is higher interest in music results in higher sales and higher piracy. Also poor people can't afford digital piracy and lots of music. So the richer you are the more likely you are 1) going to have a computer and be able to easily pirate music and 2) going to be able to afford lots of music.
Going after pirates likely will not change peoples enjoyment of music. It will certainly have an affect on the income of the individual pirate (big judgments tend to do that). #startrek
11/04/09
11/04/09
I have heard that music pirates buy more music CD's than the average consumer, I wonder if the same would hold out for movie pirates? #startrek
11/04/09
I think the general tone of the first replies is that you guys want your stuff for free. It's not free. There are tremendous costs in making these movies, the actors have salaries, the staff and camera crew have salaries. If you want advertising to be the only revenue source then reality TV will be the only profitable medium.
I used to pirate stuff, when I was a teenager and I had no money. If you're unemployed I don't mean to offend you. If you have a full-time job and you pirate cause you're cheap, stop with the BS and recognize you're part of the problem, part of the reason shows like firefly and sarah connor chronicles get canceled early.
11/04/09
Maybe we should stop pretending that entertainment should make killer earnings so that humanity could concentrate in more important.
Sheesh, how did we get to make the buffoons anc circus runners the millionaires? #startrek
11/04/09
Since this is a touchy subject with you, let me be clear - I don't pirate movies. I am of the mindset that if it's not good enough to be paid for, it's not good enough to watch. Things might be different if I didn't live in the states, but that's how it is for me.
I'm glad that you have given up your life of crime, but don't fucking assume someone else is a criminal because you are. Seriously, do you think that piracy killed Firefly and TSCC? Really? Because I think that Fox's mismanagement of the series lead to poor viewer numbers, which caused some bean counter to recommend pulling the plug because they couldn't get enough ads sold.
@Cratilo: Box Office Mojo indicated they've only made about 33 million, give or take, on the worldwide theatrical release of Star Trek, which is why DVD sales are such a big deal to them.
@James Tiberius Clarke: Good on you, then. I always worry about remorsing on buying something that I haven't seen before, which is why I don't have that big a dvd collection. Hooray for guilt, yeah?
@tmcsweeney: I agree with you entirely. The entertainment industry is pretty damn broken and the data from those surveys that indicate pirates buy more music is thin, at best. I would love to see a larger study aimed at that done, preferably by a reasonably neutral party. #startrek
11/04/09
11/04/09
Personally, I'm thinking this is just another tactic to kill Net Neutrality and they (media/ISPs) can go fuck themselves.
They still don't get that "Control" is illusory on the "tubes". #startrek
11/04/09
11/04/09
In my country a pirated DVD goes for US$1.00, while an original one goes for US$20.00. At minimum wager, people spend 4 days pay to buy one. #startrek