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First, forgive me for being ignorant. I love Alan Moore or for some reason I've always shied away from Promethea. I don't think I'll get the $100 addition I am thinking of picking up the first paperback. But before I do, can someone tell me if the story is completed? Is Moore finished with it? Is there any kind of story resolution? I'm wary of getting involved with another unresolved comic. Any help is much appreciated!
@theizz: Yes, the comic is finished, and there is a definite resolution. In fact, the ending of this comic is also the end of the ABC Comics universe. It's a beautiful ending for a beautiful series.
Promethea is an ideal candidate for the Absolute line, since it's so dense and re-readable, but with no extra features I can't believe they're charging 100$ for it.
I was sort of interested in it until you said there was a full issue of Moore info-dumping on me about magic. I like his work, but not so much that I'll love an infodump when I hate it done by anyone else.
@Rocketknight: Alan Moore said something at the time like "There are 400 comic books out there that aren't didactic treatises; isn't there room on the shelf for one that is?"
It might be didactic, and it certainly is an info-dump, but I found it never less that fascinating and compelling. Just because Moore uses the series to give a number of lectures on his views of magic and religion doesn't mean that he neglects characterization and plot.
@franklinshepard: Info-dumps are boring. Either write an essay detailing theories/opinions or allow people to enjoy a good story.
Some people may think of me as an idiot for it but I feel that I need to have it be one or the other, not both. If it does both, I will lose interest in the theories/opinions and focus on the story, which leads to skipped pages.
In this case and by the way you describe it, it seems like a lot of time is spent with lectures, meaning I will feel cheated out of my money as I skip page after page of what I will inevitably find to be an old man's rambling so I can read about the characters.
Don't get me wrong. I can read essays and enjoy them; I frequently read articles about sci-fi and fantasy worldbuilding as a way of studying to become a writer. But the second you inject a fictional narrative into it, my tongue flops out and I begin drooling all over myself as my braincells quiet down for some escapism.
@Rocketknight: Really? You can't digest information in a fictional setting? Did you skip over the middle chapters of 1984?
You could skip over the lectures, but the characters and the plot are IN the lectures. You'd be missing the point of the comic. If that sounds like something you'd hate, maybe you're right. Me, I love art that has something to say.
@Strangebomb: I think talent trumps personality. Just because he's a douche doesn't mean he isn't a great writer. Is Mark Twain less brilliant because he was prone to temper tantrums? Is Picasso less brilliant because he was a womanizer? So what if Moore is asshole, he has the talent to back it up.
The relative conservatism of the Fable community (which, given that they're hundreds of years old, makes perfect sense) is prevalent throughout the series.
Besides, that comment isn't about the origins of the state of Israel, but about its current status in the world.
@RobinSure: How was it "in character?" It sounded like Bill Willingham had transcribed his journal entry from an evening of writing after a particularly rousing episode of Hannity and Colmes.
And forever after, when they kill goblins, I'm going, "Awesome! Bulldoze the little fuckers' hundred-year-old olive groves, while you're at it! Build walls between the goblins and their Goblin Church! Kick them out of their homes and pretend they don't even have a goblin government! Tell everyone who disagrees with you that your Fairy Godmother told you to do it!"
@Perhaps Not: Big bad wolf. His whole purpose for years was carnage, and he was very good at it. While he's changing for the better, he still has considerable experience of all things martial. He recognised something as an excellent survival tactic. Argue about the ethics all you like, but Bigby was looking solely at the practicalities. Which is what he does.
And technically the olive grove was used to produce unkillable soldiers which were used to create armies which could conquer worlds. I think that counts as provocation.
@RobinSure: Right, but the real-life olive groves to which I refer were just used to produce olives.
I mean, Willingham could have used any number of historical examples to make the exact same point and it would have come off as badass, but the example he picked really minimizes the suffering of a very real group of people.
From the Comics Journal:
"If there's any underdog in this world, Israel's it. So I think I just absorbed my mother's love of Israel. Politically, I'm just rabidly pro-Israel and so that, as a metaphor, was intended from the beginning. As a matter of fact, since this interview will be coming out after issue #50, there's a scene in which it's actually stated as fact that Fabletown's battle against the vast Empire, the Adversary, is very much like Israel against the Arab nations." [www.tcj.com]
@Perhaps Not: Then learn to separate your feelings about fiction from your feelings about reality. You might not agree with his thoughts on the matter, but he still writes a bloody good story. And if that story requires for him to be pro-Israel, fine with me. He believe that killing kittens is a fun hobby for penguins, but as long as the story is compelling, I don't mind. (Assuming the usual stuff about actions not being intentions etc.)
Just as an aside, I should point out I'm neither pro or anti Israel, as I don't know enough about the situation to have any feelings about it. I always intend to rectify my knowledge of current events, but it's amazing what gets in the way.
@RobinSure: I wish I had seen this troll bullshit before abandoning the thread.
You can do whatever you want with your feelings, but fuck you very much for having the presumption for telling me what to do with mine. I'm thrilled that political content in art has no meaning to you; enjoy your D.W. Griffith festival. If an artist has an ill-considered opinion (Neal Adams thinks the earth is hollow, for instance. No shit. Look it up), it's fine as long as it doesn't interfere with his work. Willingham uses his position as a writer of fantasy comics as a bully pulpit for some very objectionable, shallow political ideas and I reserve the right to call him out on it. I won't read any more Ayn Rand novels, either. Why? Because she was wrong and she was strident about everyone hearing her wrong ideas. See also "Triumph of the Will" by Leni Riefenstahl and, to a lesser extent, "Empire" by Orson Scott Card. Does Card being an ultraconservative moron make "Ender's Game" a bad novel? Absolutely not, because he keeps his ideology to himself. Willingham does not, so I don't read Fables anymore.
has anyone had a look at Absolute Promethea? Is it a decent value for the money with some substantial extra material, or is it LOEG: The Black Dossier all over again, where they just reprinted the books, blew 'em up, and charged a hundred bucks for the slipcase?
You know, I know this post is several months old, and I know it's not cool to rag on the writers in the comments, but howzabout you remove the GIANT-ASS SPOILER from the end of the Promethea rec? Please? Some people haven't read the series and they don't KNOW how the story turns out.
I really liked the first volume of _Promethea_ , its heroine and her life and her fine universe, and then I became progressively more bored with the exposition of ceremonial magic(K) and Kabbalah. I have nothing against occultists but I get fed up when WONDERFUL art and plot are put to the service of exposition of hidden knowledge I already know. The plot and characters I had cared about got blown into Cosmic catnip. Big whoop.
I wouldn't sound so miffed if I hadn't been so hopeful.
@Laura Eleanor Jefferson: yeah... honestly the first 12 issues are my favorite comics ever, anywhere. And then.... you can pretty much skip straight to issue 29 and read the last couple issues, without missing anything in between.
Halo Jones for, as the kids say, the Win. Probably heavily influenced by Haldeman's Forever War in the third act, but hey, it really is a powerful piece.
I feel that his tales of the Green Lantern Corps deserve an entry of their own on this list. but then again i never read 1963 and only have fuzzy memories of his run on Captain Britain. There can be only ten.
Excellent list, Charlie. I might quibble or play "What about...", but the rules of 10 Best Things clearly state there can only be ten. That's a rough field to hoe with so much Moore-y goodness to choose from.
Let's hope movies get made out of every single one of them!
@Grey_Area: If we had 11 things on a top 10 list we would open a pocket dimension of sex magic and Melinda Gebbie would probably come tumbling out and follow us around. Wait, why is that bad?
@Grey_Area: Considering the track record of adaptations of Moore's comics, I'd prefer they stop making movies. The problem seems to be that he wrote most of these things as postmodern commentary and they try to make straight-up movies, missing the point.
@Charlie Jane Anders: Is no bad. I just wish Mr. Moore got to meet Krystine Kryttre, who I worshiped from afar. a truly kick-ass SF Underground Comix babe who was taken from us far too early.
Also, I would have tried to include the Bojeffries Saga into the list. but whutev.
@jbq: SarcaSam is new character in the beginning upcoming Supermax film. He acts as the audience's point of view as he gets processed into the super-duper-ultra-mondo-mega-superprison.
Warden: For you and the rest of these depraved freaks, this is your life. Some of my charges have threatened entire nations but there can be no escape from...Supermax.
The Killing Joke is a less essential Alan Moore work than 1963? Captain Britain is better than Voice of the Fire? I'd recommend his brilliant scifi Culture Shocks collection over Captain Britain. I own pretty much everything Alan Moore owns, and even as a Moore diehard I'd admit Captain Britain a lesser work. If someone seeks out Captain Britain as a result of this article looking for something on the caliber of Watchmen, they're going to be sorely disappointed. Meanwhile, Miracleman, which IS on the caliber of Watchmen, is NOT on this list, and you haven't even read.
This list seems like a struggle to even FIND ten items, because each series represents such an enormous body of work. It might have benefited from breaking up the individual series more, telling us WHICH of the six Swamp Thing volumes is the one to read -- you mention Top 10, for instance, but not the Forty-Niners, a brilliant companion novel that's arguably better than its source material. Saying "Go read League" doesn't account for the fact that the first volume is a fantastic page-turner, but that Black Dossier is impenetrable to a casual fan.
@faustmonkey: Hi there! You obviously skimmed my post and didn't read it properly, but I'll answer your objections anyway.
Let's see... First of all, the list represents my favorites, and those of the other io9 writers I talked to. These are the works I feel happy about recommending, and the ones that I think represent the diversity of Moore's work in an interesting way.
I do mention "The Killing Joke" and I recommend a volume that includes it. See above, re: the diversity of Moore's work. Also, see my comments below about why "The Killing Joke" has sunk in my estimation in recent years. (And in Moore's estimation as well, from what I've heard.)
I've never read Miracleman because it's not in print and it's impossible to find. I'm not recommending it to our readers for the same reason.
Also, I state clearly that my favorite Swamp Thing volume is the first. I mention the Forty Niners. And I mention that "The Black Dossier" is a bit of a letdown, after the first two volumes.
Where does one find these "comics torrents" I hear you young'uns talking about? For the out of print stuff only, of course, I would NEVER pirate something that's still available, oh no.
10/07/09
10/07/09
10/06/09
10/06/09
10/06/09
It might be didactic, and it certainly is an info-dump, but I found it never less that fascinating and compelling. Just because Moore uses the series to give a number of lectures on his views of magic and religion doesn't mean that he neglects characterization and plot.
10/06/09
Some people may think of me as an idiot for it but I feel that I need to have it be one or the other, not both. If it does both, I will lose interest in the theories/opinions and focus on the story, which leads to skipped pages.
In this case and by the way you describe it, it seems like a lot of time is spent with lectures, meaning I will feel cheated out of my money as I skip page after page of what I will inevitably find to be an old man's rambling so I can read about the characters.
Don't get me wrong. I can read essays and enjoy them; I frequently read articles about sci-fi and fantasy worldbuilding as a way of studying to become a writer. But the second you inject a fictional narrative into it, my tongue flops out and I begin drooling all over myself as my braincells quiet down for some escapism.
10/07/09
You could skip over the lectures, but the characters and the plot are IN the lectures. You'd be missing the point of the comic. If that sounds like something you'd hate, maybe you're right. Me, I love art that has something to say.
09/29/09
09/29/09
09/29/09
The relative conservatism of the Fable community (which, given that they're hundreds of years old, makes perfect sense) is prevalent throughout the series.
Besides, that comment isn't about the origins of the state of Israel, but about its current status in the world.
09/29/09
Seriously, if you're not reading this, there is something wrong with you.
09/29/09
09/29/09
09/29/09
And forever after, when they kill goblins, I'm going, "Awesome! Bulldoze the little fuckers' hundred-year-old olive groves, while you're at it! Build walls between the goblins and their Goblin Church! Kick them out of their homes and pretend they don't even have a goblin government! Tell everyone who disagrees with you that your Fairy Godmother told you to do it!"
Talk about dehumanizing your enemies.
09/29/09
And technically the olive grove was used to produce unkillable soldiers which were used to create armies which could conquer worlds. I think that counts as provocation.
09/29/09
I mean, Willingham could have used any number of historical examples to make the exact same point and it would have come off as badass, but the example he picked really minimizes the suffering of a very real group of people.
From the Comics Journal:
"If there's any underdog in this world, Israel's it. So I think I just absorbed my mother's love of Israel. Politically, I'm just rabidly pro-Israel and so that, as a metaphor, was intended from the beginning. As a matter of fact, since this interview will be coming out after issue #50, there's a scene in which it's actually stated as fact that Fabletown's battle against the vast Empire, the Adversary, is very much like Israel against the Arab nations."
[www.tcj.com]
09/29/09
Just as an aside, I should point out I'm neither pro or anti Israel, as I don't know enough about the situation to have any feelings about it. I always intend to rectify my knowledge of current events, but it's amazing what gets in the way.
10/08/09
You can do whatever you want with your feelings, but fuck you very much for having the presumption for telling me what to do with mine. I'm thrilled that political content in art has no meaning to you; enjoy your D.W. Griffith festival. If an artist has an ill-considered opinion (Neal Adams thinks the earth is hollow, for instance. No shit. Look it up), it's fine as long as it doesn't interfere with his work. Willingham uses his position as a writer of fantasy comics as a bully pulpit for some very objectionable, shallow political ideas and I reserve the right to call him out on it. I won't read any more Ayn Rand novels, either. Why? Because she was wrong and she was strident about everyone hearing her wrong ideas. See also "Triumph of the Will" by Leni Riefenstahl and, to a lesser extent, "Empire" by Orson Scott Card. Does Card being an ultraconservative moron make "Ender's Game" a bad novel? Absolutely not, because he keeps his ideology to himself. Willingham does not, so I don't read Fables anymore.
09/29/09
08/13/09
02/28/09
02/28/09
I wouldn't sound so miffed if I hadn't been so hopeful.
02/28/09
02/27/09
I feel that his tales of the Green Lantern Corps deserve an entry of their own on this list. but then again i never read 1963 and only have fuzzy memories of his run on Captain Britain. There can be only ten.
02/27/09
Let's hope movies get made out of every single one of them!
heh heh heh
02/27/09
02/27/09
02/27/09
Also, I would have tried to include the Bojeffries Saga into the list. but whutev.
02/27/09
Sheesh.
02/27/09
02/28/09
02/28/09
Warden: For you and the rest of these depraved freaks, this is your life. Some of my charges have threatened entire nations but there can be no escape from...Supermax.
SarcaSam: *ppbt!* Uh, yeah. Whatever.
02/27/09
02/27/09
02/27/09
This list seems like a struggle to even FIND ten items, because each series represents such an enormous body of work. It might have benefited from breaking up the individual series more, telling us WHICH of the six Swamp Thing volumes is the one to read -- you mention Top 10, for instance, but not the Forty-Niners, a brilliant companion novel that's arguably better than its source material. Saying "Go read League" doesn't account for the fact that the first volume is a fantastic page-turner, but that Black Dossier is impenetrable to a casual fan.
02/27/09
Let's see... First of all, the list represents my favorites, and those of the other io9 writers I talked to. These are the works I feel happy about recommending, and the ones that I think represent the diversity of Moore's work in an interesting way.
I do mention "The Killing Joke" and I recommend a volume that includes it. See above, re: the diversity of Moore's work. Also, see my comments below about why "The Killing Joke" has sunk in my estimation in recent years. (And in Moore's estimation as well, from what I've heard.)
I've never read Miracleman because it's not in print and it's impossible to find. I'm not recommending it to our readers for the same reason.
Also, I state clearly that my favorite Swamp Thing volume is the first. I mention the Forty Niners. And I mention that "The Black Dossier" is a bit of a letdown, after the first two volumes.
Thanks for your input!
02/27/09
1963 and Top 10 sound very entertaining to me.
02/27/09
02/27/09