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The Man Who Could Turn Anyone into a Torturer in Minutes

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psych0fred
11/04/08

In reply to The Man Who Could Turn Anyone into a Torturer in Minutes
Read The Lucifer Effect by Phil Zimbardo, who was responsible for the Stanford Prison Experiments. He was also featured in the documentary The Human Behavior Experiments.

It is human nature as Klebert said (Freud's original theory BTW, proven time and again, that we are all selfish animals ruled by irrational fears and primitive desires) and we'd all do the same thing and as much as we can get away with unless system are put in place to prevent it. Abu Ghraib was little more than college hazing while other real atrocities have taken place and gone unnoticed because there wasn't a President people wanted to blame. It's all in the book The Lucifer Effect. You can also see a video of Zimbardo discussing it on booktv.org, and you can also do a search on YouTube for 'Zimbardo'.

It's also been said that Milgram's experiment was invalid because people weren't aware of what was actually happening to the person they were allegedly shocking. If the results of their actions were undeniable then it would valid. Otherwise it's just a video game.

Stay informed.
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GodfreyImber
11/04/08

In reply to The Man Who Could Turn Anyone into a Torturer in Minutes
I'd have to agree with Klebert. If you're a moderately perceptive person you can see all types of personalities just by oberving the way students behave towards each other and their teachers in school. I think two of the most outspoken and obvious personalities are sadistic ones, and passive depressive ones. Although most young people who attend school are what society would deem "normal" , every school has its bullies (the sadists), the quiet loners(passive/depressive), and unfortunately, the suicidals. Everyone effects each other differently and your psyche develops according to what you're exposed to and how you choose or are able to handle what you feel and experience.
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Seeräuberjenny
11/04/08

In reply to The Man Who Could Turn Anyone into a Torturer in Minutes
@Starwatcher-23: There has to be an underlying motivation.

But there wasn't, and that's the spookiest part. From Wikipedia (Milgram Experiment):

If at any time the subject indicated his desire to halt the experiment, he was given a succession of verbal prods by the experimenter, in this order:

1. Please continue.

2. The experiment requires that you continue.

3. It is absolutely essential that you continue.

4. You have no other choice, you must go on.

...So you see, there was no higher cause, no "for the greater good" motivation, nothing. It was, plain and simple: A PERSON IN AUTHORITY SAYS SO. COMPLY.

And the person in authority wasn't someone with a gun, neither a political/religious figure or what have you. He was just a scientist. A guy with a white robe.

It's horrible. Horrible...
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ShrimayiCalypso
11/04/08

In reply to The Man Who Could Turn Anyone into a Torturer in Minutes
Yet another reason to never give the government any power you can avoid giving it.
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Klebert L. Hall
11/04/08

In reply to The Man Who Could Turn Anyone into a Torturer in Minutes
This is just basic human nature, the only reason people were shocked and/or surprised is because they never spent any time in self-examination, or observing people.

Anyone who has ever been to grammar school should have known this about people.

Unfortunately, most people go out of their way to live in a self-generated fantasy world.

-Kle.
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HaukAmyntor
11/04/08

In reply to The Man Who Could Turn Anyone into a Torturer in Minutes
The write-up is a little misleading with regard to the details of the experiment. First off, the electrical shocks were used as part of a learning experiment. The participants administering the shocks (when the "learner" gave an incorrect response or no response) received a "test shock" that was mildly painful using a switch on the low end of the mechanism (about 1/10th the maximum) so that what they were doing could hurt the learner.

In terms of the results in the original study, about 2/3rds of the people continued shocking the learners to the maximum extent they could within the learning experiment. One third did not. Instead of excusing those who do bad things in obedience to authority, instead think about the courage of the 33% who resisted when authorities asked them to do immoral things. The study does not excuse bad behavior, it just notes that we all too commonly trade our consciences for the consciences of others, and end up "just following orders".
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LicenseFarm
11/03/08

In reply to The Man Who Could Turn Anyone into a Torturer in Minutes
It's very interesting to read people's reactions to this, since, uh, I'm kinda related to Milgram (he was my mother's 2nd cousin). I read Obedience to Authority at something of a prodigious age, and it really captured my imagination. I wished it were possible to conduct an analogous experiment now, which I was told as a kid was now impossible, at least in this country. But on the other hand, certain reality game shows are nearly the same thing with their bait n' switch twists. Cousin Stanley's spirit lives on.
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DurwinAnya
11/03/08

In reply to The Man Who Could Turn Anyone into a Torturer in Minutes
I took part in this experiment. It wasn't conducted by Milgram, it was a replication done at UCLA. I posted about it a while ago here:

http://www.richardsnotes.org/archives/2008/06/30/milgram-revisited/

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manonfire285
11/03/08

In reply to The Man Who Could Turn Anyone into a Torturer in Minutes
Wow, I just watched a documentary about this in my English class a week ago. It was really interesting and actually got me thinking about what I would do in that situation. Unfortunately, now that it exists, I can't undergo the experiment because I know what they are truly testing and the tricks behind it and the results will be skewed.
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twophrasebark
11/03/08

In reply to The Man Who Could Turn Anyone into a Torturer in Minutes
Milgram also did another experiment where he created a experiment showing that people blindly follow authority. He then made this experiment famous throughout the world. He made sure it was taught to school children throughout the world.

He then tested people again to see if they still blinded followed authority. As they followed blindly, he asked them if they remembered his famous experiment. They said, "Yes, of course. How much voltage do your want me to feed into this guy?"

Milgram then jumped off the roof of a building.
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DeanPterelaos
11/03/08

In reply to The Man Who Could Turn Anyone into a Torturer in Minutes
Chip Kidd's new novel, The Learners, is a fictionalized account of one of Milgram's test subjects. I highly recommend it.
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Asari
11/03/08

In reply to The Man Who Could Turn Anyone into a Torturer in Minutes
We do what we're told.
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Starwatcher-23
11/03/08

In reply to The Man Who Could Turn Anyone into a Torturer in Minutes
The pertinent question is, to what degree do the theoretical torturers believe that torturing is serving a greater cause? I don't think the average person would torture or kill just because their superiors told them to. There has to be an underlying motivation. It's difficult reconcile the 'only following orders' apologetic for low-level Nazis and the like--most of them had to have been aware of the cause which they were serving. We could see the same thing in religious movements like the Inquisition, where reps of the church believed they were doing God's work.
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Kaver
11/03/08

In reply to The Man Who Could Turn Anyone into a Torturer in Minutes
I would really like to see more of this type of commentary--there will probably be someone along within minutes to question the theme as philosophy; a criteria which every SciFi author of whom I can think has addressed. This has been subsequently repeated a few times, and, from what I can remember, the initial speech differed with each experiment. It does contribute a great deal to the initial skepticism, but the reactions during the procedure can provide a horrible reaction to the possibility of being the imagined recipient.

Say you give your BFF the remote and have them respond to every word or answer. Doesn't look good for the ol' polygraph.
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LittleDragon
11/03/08

In reply to The Man Who Could Turn Anyone into a Torturer in Minutes
It says that people were invited to go to his lab and help him use a machine to shock people. Does this mean the people knew they were going to be electrocuting people? If so that may speak more for about the people who volenterally showed up. What they should have done was just grab some people and ask them to take part in an experiment and that things would be explained to them by the doctor after they agree.
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Annalee Newitz
11/03/08

@ldevitt: Sorry I was unclear. They were just told they would be doing an experiment. When they got there he told them that it would involve administering shocks.
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