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San Francisco, 2:20 PM
Sat Nov 7
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11/02/09
11/02/09
Now one of the primary arguments against the story is that women are being type cast; weak, helpless, supportive roles. WRONG!
First of all, there hasn’t been enough time in the storyline to present much one way or the other.
Second, the sexual activity is split somewhere between typical "stress" response (we’re about to die, let’s make love) and influence (Lt James luring Eli away the way she did). Look for more of the later to happen, especially after the series starts exploring the idea that the military no longer has sway because they are so disconnected from their source of authority that there is no reason to obey anymore.
Third, we just had the Lt / Medic resolve a significant problem by her own skills: direct experience, (request for) input from others, and "reading" the situation on site to take control because she knew that a (stereotyped) man was probably going to do the wrong thing because he couldn’t keep his emotions in check.
Honestly, I think this show may be more intelligent than most people realize. It might be the reason that Mallozzi is snapping back at Troll’s, no one seems to see the art he is presenting because they don’t like the color Red. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
I have no problem with movies, books, or television shows that genuinely explore human sexuality. However, I feel that SGU is more often than not falling into old stereotypes and common tropes regarding sexuality, and has indeed fallen into common sexist traps as well. To say that simply portraying sex is enough isn't true for me. I need the sex and sexuality to be portrayed WELL.
SGU might be heading towards that, it's entirely possible since we've only just started scratching the surface of it. But so far they aren't very far along that road, in my opinion. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
I can name at least 5 superiors who slept their way to the top. Its not even implied they did, it is WELL known they did and who they did it with to get where they are today. Not only did they sleep their way to the top, but they in some cases stabbed the person they slept with in the back AFTER they got there. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
With that perspective, if everything has been fundamentally the same since late 70’s, is it really stereotyping to present a broad range of sexual sub-plots, some of which were around 30+ years ago? Yes, some of them were stereotype before, but the subject has been so PC’ed for so long, that it starts to become new again.
I agree with you (believe it or not), they have not had enough time to do decent character development, as well as overarching story arc. The story has to be well thought out: it would be far too easy to create "Porky’s in Space", or for that matter SG:90201. Too far in either direction and the show will die quickly. #stargateuniverse
11/03/09
Everybody in the real world is a human being, most of them with a rather well developed "character." And while it might be true that a lot of men (and to be fair, women) objectify women, it isn't true that it's something that we should encourage or normalize.
I have no problem with the people sleeping with each other, as I pointed out, I don't care about the sex being there. I have problems with how it's PORTRAYED. I might not have been too clear about that before, I apologize. But it's not the fact that two officers were sleeping with each other, it's the way it was shot, and the way their characters have been developed or not. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
Comics fall under the same scrutiny and the executives and writers are too scared to tell every one to shut the hell up and let them tell their stories, that it will all make sense, that it will all be worth it after. That's why we get characters coming back in the screwed up ways (looking at you Jason Todd). Whiny idiot comments are the reason we see retcons 98% of the time, coupled with the fear of losing the income they make from the books because of those comments, even though every one keeps reading any way. Then the stupid cycle starts again when the they decide to do what the readers cried out for in the first place, abolishing whole stories and leagues of character development, when the fans decide they didn't like how it happened or never wanted it in the first place.
You know, if Joss Whedon grew a pair like this guy has Dollhouse probably wouldn't be in the dark hole its in. Brilliant man, but to much of a pushover, he can learn a thing or two from this.
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/03/09
11/02/09
...but there were no flawless people, square jawed heroes or stories that set up and delivered all the answers of the course of a 40 minutes episode on SG1 or SGA. ...at least not all of the time. Team SG1 was full of flaws. In fact one of the team member's greatest flaws was his greatest advantage -- Teal'c + his symbiote. Carter was a genius, but she wasn't perfect by any means. Jack DEFINITELY wasn't perfect. Same goes for SGA (a show I personally think about reached it capacity for flawed people) SG1 and SGA may have been campy at times, but they were their own shows and they had characters that had CHARACTER. And why are we so eager to escape SG camp, anyway? It's fine to make SG darker and more gritty, but at least be original and Stargate-y instead of hijacking BSG stylization!
BTW, whoever came up with Lt. Rack or McBoobs is a wordplaying genius who should be given some sort of award. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
Teal'c is the flawless stoic warrior. Having a symbiot is not a flaw, it's just a property of his special power, just like any cartoon character. It's all standard tv stuff. These guys never make mistake and always know what to do or what to say by the episode's end never do anything the audience would be uncomfortable with, unless it's a for a cliff hanger for the next episode. It's always resolved back to vanilla and political correctness. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
You could argue that Daniel had no flaws (except that I didn't like him) and you could SAY that Jack had no flaws. But you can't say that he never made mistakes and always knew the right thing to do, because part of his character is that he wants to shoot his way out of things and ask questions later. Watch The Nox, the team consistently argues with the native people and tells them that their entire belief system is wrong, and the audience might be behind them, thinking that The Nox will fall victim to Apophis at any moment. But in the last moments you learn that not only were The Nox fully capable of taking care of themselves AND being peaceful people, but also that by not listening to them for the entire episode, the team just completely ruined any chance Earth would have had to learn from their advanced technology or form an alliance with them, which is doubly heartbreaking when you consider that they as a race were on par with The Ancients.
I think that SG-1 had a lot of layers that people are forgetting to give it credit for these days in their rush to discredit it as "campy" or "formulaic" so that they can talk about how much better whatever they're watching now is. At least, that's how it feels when Mallozzi and the SGU team gets started. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
---
Destiny...
The design is clearly ancient...
Launched hundreds of thousands of years ago...
A stranded crew...
All the "wrong" people...
Dwindling resources...
Yesterday it was air...
Today it was water...
Tomorrow it will be... condoms and feminine products
Don't miss the exciting upcoming episode of SGU, where the Destiny drops out of FTL when it detects an intergalactic K-Mart.
Watch as Lt. Scott buys his first box of condoms and Chloe searches for a pregnancy test that works in space!
Be amazed as Lt. Boobs stocks up on PMS medication, while Lt. Angry Grier looks for the latest issue of PlayGirl!
Follow the women of Destiny as they search for feminine products to deal with their periods!
And, finally, witness Dr. Rush attempting to find medication that can get his ass unstuck, while Eli buys his favorite rubber ducky. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
Rush has settled down a lot since his collapse. He seems to be at a "normal" level of crazy instead of foaming at the mouth batshit crazy.
Lt. James is being the competent junior officer I hoped she was. She seems to have taken the high road with Chloe and saved her anger for Scott.
We saw some character development of T.J. and Greer when they had to handle a situation without Young.
There's a lot of potential for this show so I'm willing to give it time to get its footing. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
I just thought the last two episodes were predictable and boring. I understand the need to address the resource issues - and I actually like the fact that they are, because that's what realistically would happen if a bunch of people actually found themselves stranded inside an alien ship that old and that far away from home - but the writers have done a boring job in addressing them.
Also, I'm really not a fan of the shaky camera and BSG-style shots. Come on, leave BSG behind and be original! I want good stories, not an attempt to re-enact BSG.
Moreover, I'm really sick of the same old cliches: the women are sexualized and/or left in the shadows of the action, the damsel in distress falls for the hunky soldier rather than for the kind and smart nerd who's by her side whenever she needs moral support, the kind and smart nerd acts like a child, the chief scientist is portrayed like this hermit mad man, the angry soldier with a chip on his shoulder. Should I continue?
Granted, TJ has been given a more active role and both the actress and her character pulled through in spades. In fact, TJ is my favorite character so far. She's quiet but also strong.
I find some of the interactions among the characters to be really unconvincing. The truth of the matter is that Rush and Eli (more often Eli than Rush) have *saved* everyone. Not with brave soldier-like heroics but with their brains (Eli) and with sensible prioritizing of their needs (Rush).
Young and everyone else give Rush the bad treatment and sorta consider Eli to be a child, yet they're the ones who saved everyone's assess. I find the crew's lack of gratitude very unconvincing. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
Young is handling Rush and Eli like subordinate officers under his command. It may seem harsh to a civilian but is quite normal in the military (I've done 20+ years in the Army so I've seen this in action). Young has pretty much said Rush is just a necessary burden he has to deal with. Young has praised Eli when he's done well but is not excessive with it. He also uses Eli's efforts to motivate the the other civilians to step up their game. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
In any case, I'd like to see the writers and producers pushing the boundaries rather than succumbing to cliches. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
Rush is not only the smartest guy in the room, he's also not a pleasant person to deal with. He's not trusted or liked by the other civilians and they will marginalize him as much as possible.
Eli is the new guy. He's not part of the established Icarus Base team that has been working together for a while. He also doesn't have a degree like a lot of the others. Like Rush, he's a smart guy who is showing them up.
It might not be fair, but that's how it is.
11/02/09
Young is exercising good leadership in a crisis situation. Quite frankly if I were on Destiny I'd rather have a hardass who knew what he was doing than a democracy. His is the only way to go while they are on a razor's edge regarding survival.
"I find the crew's lack of gratitude very unconvincing".
I find it spot on. Most people can't think further than their own noses in a crisis. If you don't believe me, read some accounts about people on hijacked cruise ships and so forth. I think the crowd on SG:U illustrates this perfectly.
"Not with brave soldier-like heroics but with their brains (Eli) and with sensible prioritizing of their needs (Rush)."
If you think modern soldiers are all about brawn with no brains, think again. You'll find that many many officers and NCOs have degrees in a wide range of disciplines. Modern militaries strongly believe in the "thinking soldier". This is not incompatible with heroics.
"Young and everyone else give [...] and sorta consider Eli to be a child,"
That's because he acts like a child. Young is getting what he needs from him (thinking) but is trying to make him mature a little. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
"Young is exercising good leadership in a crisis situation. Quite frankly if I were on Destiny I'd rather have a hardass who knew what he was doing than a democracy. His is the only way to go while they are on a razor's edge regarding survival."
Young is exercising leadership, not necessarily a good one, though I don't think it's bad either. I'm not suggesting that there should be a democracy, only that if the selling point is "knowing what one's doing", then Rush trumps him. Young himself has admitted to Rush that he (Rush) was right on several issues.
Like I said, I'm not suggesting a democracy, but a better division of "command" responsibilities. Yes, I know that there can only be one commander, but this is not a typical situation. Here, in my opinion, Young should be in command of military decisions and crowd control, but Rush is the one who should be calling the shots in regards to survival-related decisions, at least until the razor-edge situation is ameliorated.
Now, truth be told, Rush should also accept that he can't have everything he wants. I agree that he's got no real social skills and, therefore, is not an ideal choice for a commander.
In summary, all I'm really saying is this: when Rush tells Young that they don't have the energy to dial Earth, Young should shut up and listen, and that's true even if Rush is wrong or hiding some hidden agenda, because the alternative is very simple: death. And that goes to everyone else as well.
"I find it spot on. Most people can't think further than their own noses in a crisis."
These aren't most people, though. I find it hard to believe that the crew of the Icarus base (even the civilians) haven't received some form of crisis training. After all, it's not everyone nor everyday that people travel to another freaking planet in a spaceship and/or through the stargate. The psychological impact of something like that is huge, so the people who were accepted to serve at the base must have had above-average crisis-handling skills, plus some training.
"If you think modern soldiers are all about brawn with no brains, think again."
True, but that's not what's portrayed in SGU. At least in SG-1 we had Sam. In SGU, instead, we have the cliched angry soldier with something to prove.
"That's because he acts like a child."
Does he really? Why? Because he quotes Star Wars? So what? What has anyone else (among the civilians) done that's really helpful? At least Eli has come up with ideas, some of which have actually saved people's asses. I'd be more than willing to cut him some slack just for that. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
Young doesn't see Rush as being in charge. He sees Rush as an adviser. A senior, very knowledgeable adviser but still an adviser. Even with all the civilian involvement and oversight, Stargate Command is still primarily a military operation. Young considers himself in charge. He's the one who reports back to General O'Neill. When Colonel Telford shows up, he considers himself in charge.
"the people who were accepted to serve at the base must have had above-average crisis-handling skills, plus some training."
The civilians were most likely chosen for their technical skills (Eli being the best example). I'm sure the other civilians had a little more training than Dr. Jackson's "Stargates for Dummies" video. The military personnel were at Icarus Base to handle any crisis that arose. The procedure for any really serious incident was to gate back to Earth anyway. #stargateuniverse
11/03/09
Re: Young's style. It is true that he is not necessarily making the right decisions. However he is the man on the spot and as such it is still better for him to make the decisions.
Re: Young vs. Rush. I agree that Rush should be listened to. But that's easy for us to say. Young is confronted by a guy who is very disruptive to the group. Also, from Young's point of view, Rush may or may not have one more more hidden agendas that may run quite contrary to the "mission." As a commander, it is a big headache.
Re: The caliber of people. I have indeed been puzzled by some of the people posted to Icarus base. If we consider this the equivalent of the Apollo program, can this really be the cream of the crop?
Re: Eli acting like a child. It's not the Star Wars quotes. I meant that he doesn't know when to let it go once the decisions is taken. A very important part of growing up is learning when to shut up. ;)
PS: Who else thinks the new comment system could use some stability? It's fickle as all hell. Grrr... #stargateuniverse
11/03/09
11/02/09
you must give this time to develope.it is still very new.it is meant to be dark and the characters all have flaws.they were never supposed to work together like an SG team would.They have all been thrown on a ship with no way home so they are all tweaked out. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
Um...get rid of everyone! And, uh, stop doing everything you're doing! :) #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
Well, IIRC, its pretty standard that the first 4-6 episodes are written before they have really started into the casting and filming. The episodes are built off spec and they aren't quite sure on how the chemistry between actors plays out and what works.
If you look at ST:TNG and ST:VOY, you can see how the first few episodes actually hurt the show. In ST:TNG, they were obviously working around the Riker character and he was going to be the center of action. As it played out, a lot of his interactions moved outwards. Data started a lot interaction with Geordi and a lot of the thread related to Troi was dropped. ST:VOY started off with the characters ridiculously overthought and with extensive background stories introduced for each character fairly early.
The reality is that they've created a world with about 10 characters we know the names of and have seen in action on a fairly regular basis, but we've only seen the background stories of 2 of them from flashbacks and we have verbal backgrounds on1 other. The rest are in a slow reveal. Friday's episode was l of the first written after they filmed an episode and it was specifically addresses another female role (that of TJ).
So, yes, they are aware of the stereotypical nature of the thing. They also seem to have specifically addressed it on a couple occasions.
That said.. that whole Scott thing with the women needs to go away. One episode, he's off getting laid when he is responsible for getting a shuttle prepped for an evac and on another occasion, he's shut off his radio.
They are changing some other factors quietly. The most recent episode shows that they are starting to have an ad hoc procedure for excursions through the gate. They showed they are communicating with each other offscreen. (That was a major failing in Lost its first year. No one showed any knowledge of what happened when they were not personally present). #stargateuniverse
11/03/09
Read the quote, and then read the comment again. If you still don't get it, repeat until you do. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
Your show has invited exactly the kind of juvenile discussion and debasement that you complain about.
The ridiculous camera shots of Lt. James, the gratuitously absurd shower scene with Chloe, Chloe's immediate need to find a sexual partner, the pursuit of Lt. James with the kino...
I don't excuse the comments that you feel have crossed the line and I don't excuse the pandering of your show to the very people you are complaining about.
Guess what? Put on a show with silly sexist crap like you've done and you get back... silly sexist crap.
As Graeme wrote: "Is his skin getting thin because the complaints ring true?"
I would say this is a rather accurate assessment. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
I have to further add that Mallozzi is using a rather cheap manipulative trick in regards to his claim that the comments are hurting his cast.
One only need look at the screencaps posted in the previous story:
[io9.com]
to see who is hurting the cast and crew. Not the fans. You, Mallozzi, and the other producers are hurting your cast. The fans are only pointing out and illuminating what YOU are doing. If you don't want your cast hurt by sexist comments, DON'T portray them so ridiculously.
11/02/09
It's offensive because of the way it's framed, shot, lingered on, edited, etc. If I was writing a paper about it for class, I'd make a graph about how many seconds out of that segment of the show (since we returned to her in the shower over a large period of time, she was taking the longest shower known to man) and how it compared with the number of seconds spent on the vital scenes or characters (Rush trying to solve the power problem, Young trying to resolve the personal issues occurring on board, etc).
Then you'd look at some screencaps of the way it was framed vs. the way the men in the episode are framed, you could look at the lighting (was it realistic harsh lighting or was it cheesecloth "lookit, pretty girl" lighting), and you could even look at the music cues that occur during the scene, though I don't remember those myself.
While most people would pull it apart that much before they object to it, since they're not used to doing that kind of deconstruction of the things they watch (yay, grad school) at the same time, they're reacting on a visceral level to those kinds of tools and tricks being used by the director and cinematographer. They just don't know how to articulate why it bothers them sometimes, so people tend to say "you're just offended because you don't like naked girls." #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
I can't say I know much about editing or cinematography, but I do try to analyze scenes and dissect what goes on, thank you. #stargateuniverse
11/03/09
Very well said. Thank you. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
By all means, Mr. Mallozzi, call out people who are hypocritical with their arguments (i.e. laying claim to a moral and feminist high ground while at the same time calling the character Lieutenant Racky McTitsalot). But the fact remains that if the sole focus of the characterization is on the actress's endowments, then the showrunner might want to work on a better defining trait. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
SGU on the other hand has me at the TV set every Friday evening, something that has not happened since BSG. I have no idea what is going to happen, I am always left confused and the characters contain enough personality flaws and shortcomings to convince me the entire setup is going to unravel at any moment. That is good story telling, That is what SGU seemingly wants to bring to the table; An adult theme to an insipid and ridiculous backstory... ie Star Gate /rolleyes.
Let the "Stargate" fans cry and moan, as long as they do I know the show is on the right track.
11/02/09
11/02/09
When Trek took darker tones, they still had the core element of morality there with the characters tried to make the right decisions, and those shows stayed around for a decent time on the air.
When Doctor Who took a darker tone, it still was Doctor Who! What made Stargate enjoyable for me was apparently everything they decided to take out of Universe... And now that I know for sure it won't get better, I can give up hope that it will. #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
Torchwood?
Good sexual politics?
Half of the show's humor derives from the fact that Jack will shag anything. That is far from "good sexual politics." #stargateuniverse
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/03/09
There's nothing wrong with having a character who's kind of a bastard, there's just something wrong with pointing at it and saying that this is a positive example.
I've found Torchwood never really delivered on its promise of exploring outside "hetero-normative conditioning" because all of the characters who weren't Jack quickly fell back into heterosexual patterns (except maybe Ianto, which was wonderful but Jack treated him so dismissively most of the time).
The third season was much better, but that's because our cast was boiled down to two couples: Jack/Ianto and Gwen/Rhys. They spent time exploring their relationships, and it was a nice change of pace. #stargateuniverse
11/03/09
11/02/09
For future episodes, I'll try to analyze the metaphysical aspects of characters Mr. David Chase...er i mean Mr. Joe Mallozzi creates instead of seeing them as 2 dimensional. #stargateuniverse