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What's The Difference Between Space Opera and Military SF?
San Francisco, 4:22 AM
Fri Dec 11
26 posts in the last 24 hours
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05/07/09
Hell just look at the pic
<-----(from Warhammer 40k, for the clueless)
I have to use this post as an excuse to talk about my favorite space opera of all time: Gunbuster
[en.wikipedia.org]
It's an older anime OVA from Gainax (of EVA fame). It has six parts, but over that span the tone changes rather dramatically. Starts off kind of like a future high school with robots thing, but in short order turns to awesome (once that whole rival grudge match arc passes in part 2 or 3).
Oh and I must say, this IS Gainax, so boobies do-be-a-bouncing everywhere -- but if you don't like that just try and look past it -- I mean *I* like it but it's not everyone's cup of tea.
It's a space opera for sure (BUSTER BEEEAAAMMM, heh love that), but it does have a lot of "hard" and "military" notes to it. Just skimming over the wiki entry and you can see the stuff about how it handles time time dilation fairly realistic way.
I'd recommend it for a watch for any lover of epic scale space opera. How epic? How about epic enough to use Jupiter as a weapon?
So do any of you guys know of any genre pushing (between Opera and Military) sci-fi out there?
05/07/09
No. These developments took place at different times. Formation fighting went in and out of style from the Ancient through Modern eras. Gunpowder appears in western Europe in the mid-1200's. The overall transformation of warfare stemmed from the development of new modes of taxation that made standing armies possible in western Europe, professionalizing a warrior class that was no longer exactly synonymous with the political elite. Political fragmentation during the 1300's was actually one of the disasters that made standing armies seem necessary.
Gunpowder did have a catalyzing impact in that the new modes of fortification necessitated by firearms AND the more elaborate modes of siege warfare necessary to overcome them increased the cost of war to the point that eventually nation states were able to monopolize it. Gunpowder was also a factor in siege warfare long before it became effective in open battle.
I sure hope my students have grokked this, because they've got a test in seventy minutes.
[runs off to run off final]
05/07/09
I was doing a bit of generalization here. Certainly, formation fighting was utilized in ancient times, and for good purpose, and the same reasons extend through to today. However, betweeen the time that gunpowder came to Europe and then utilized effectively, there were a mass of innovations, including taxation and administrative functions that allowed for standing armies. However, the introduction of armed infantry did require rank and file, standardized training and eventually, uniforms, that form the basis of modern militaries at this point. Along the way, there were the advances in seige warfare.
05/07/09
News to me.
05/08/09
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05/07/09
Shtar Warsh is different from Shtar Treg, duh, and both are different than B-5, which is different from Hammer's Slammers (a ripping Vietnam-era bit) which is different from Forever War which is different from Starship Troopers, which ...
Frankly, every book is supposed to be different from every other book, otherwise it is an exampled of what we in the writing business call "plagiarism", which is considered "bad" (to use another insider expression).
To define Space Opera as distinct from Military Sci-Fi is pure straw-manning of the worst ivory-towered ilk.
But hey, if it fills you Internets, be my guest.
And you may quote me.
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05/07/09
Another point is that space opera tends to further in the future almost by necessity, to achieve the grandeur that makes for good space opera. If you want to read the real hardcore military SF, it generally takes place in the near future on Earth, since it's easier to extrapolate strategy and tactics (and more importantly, logistics) onto new weapons developments or geopolitical events and have a realistic tale. Hardcore military SF is Joe Buff and Dale Brown. Softcore military SF is Heinlein, Zahn, and Dickson (anyone remember "Dorsai!"?)
SSgt. USAF, ret.
05/07/09
I've got no issues with the military, especially after attending a military acadmy. However, the ultimate purpose of any military force is to protect a nation or government from an external threat, either by force or the threat of such. Destruction is inherent. It doesn't always happen, but it can if needed.
Furthermore, modern armies require uniformity, hense formations, uniforms, etc. These are long-standing items that have been incoporated into military tradition for a reason, and because of this uniformity, the odd-man-out isn't necessarily welcomed, and the main reason that we have a basic training system in the US is to break down a recruit and build him into a soldier who can operate within this system.
Finally, yes, enemy forces are dehumanized. Otherwise, it would be much, much harder to get soldiers actually kill enemy soldiers - I believe that there's been some research done to this effect.
05/07/09
My personal favorite historian on military matters is Gwynn Dyer. His book War was pretty definitive for me.
05/07/09
I'd highly recommend World History of Warfare by Christan Archer, as well as Makers of Modern Strategy by Peter Paret, both very good and definitive titles.
05/07/09
big space ships, lot's of arguments and people.
It's all about the people and their experiences in the end.
The epic opera landscape always involves war and conflict.
So sorry, it just doesn't wash.
05/07/09
Really, it's a small distinction, but there are distinctions between the two - just because something incorporates similar elements, such as combat, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's military science fiction. Foundation, for example, doesn't have all that much action in it, if memory serves.
05/07/09
Huh? Is there such a thing as military science fiction? Heinlein used science fiction to write about his own political and social views. In Starship Troopers his backdrop happens to be war. I see little difference between this book and, say, Stranger in a Strange Land, except for the cool armor.
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And what's the difference between pre and post "Military revolution" hatred of ones enemy?
05/07/09
The focus against an 'Other' is something that's utilized through the military, and can come from cultural issues, but I'm not trying to make the point that a military is necessarily racist and anti-this/that because they oppose them. Just that armies go for uniformity and that the odd man out is generally not accepted.
Honestly, don't know that there is much of a difference between the pre/post MR attitudes towards enemy. The Military Revolution allowed for uniformity throughout the armed forces, and maybe this could have helped to focus such things? But I'm not totally sure that it would have made much of a difference - enemies are generally not well liked.
05/07/09
Of course as a goit I'd say the MR is a made up load of the heebie-jeebies and that Roberts, Parker, Lynn etc. were all pretty well debunked by John Stone in the Journal of Military History back in 2004 which essentially proved the MR was neither revolutionary nor technologically inspired.
Furthermore I'd probably push the time period in which the MR is supposed to have taken place from 1300-1400's to 1300-1700's (Roberts original work on the MR placed it as lasting from 1560-1660).
Of course that's because I'm a war nerd who's picking fault with the only non-SF bit on an SF website....
Further note, the term skinnies was nicked from SF to be used as a nickname for Somali's back during the intervention in '93 by US troops. Fact and fiction, eh?
05/07/09
I really liked Robert's article, to be honest, and I'm not prepared to push the idea of the military revolution out the door, although I will say that I see the thing more as a sort of package of advancements over time. There were distinctly different methods of fighting because of the introduction of firearms.
I didn't have the dates handy, so I went with what I remembered from some of my discussions, but thanks for the reminder - the dates are certainly a bit fluid depending on who you talk to...
Really? That's interesting.
05/07/09
Yes, I know some people (often over-reacting liberals) can't tell the difference, but there's no evidence of any of the typical characteristics of fascism in the society described in the novel. There's no evidence of government coercion (people are actively discouraged from joining the military and allowed to leave freely), no sign that government controls business or the marketplace, and no sign of a regulated press except for the censorship common to wartime (see the US during WWII).
Even the celebrated militarism is highly isolated from the rest of society. Military recruits are treated to intense training and behavior molding, but nothing radically different in concept from existing military training (try the Marine Corp if you want intense). On the whole, Starship Trooper's society tends to resemble the US today one that includes an all volunteer military with, increasingly, a culture of its own.
So the novel explores one unusual idea, not even a proposal, on how a society might react to a military experience where veterans and abandoned prisoners of war had a major influence on it. Instead of a world where only 70% of us tend to show up for most elections, only retired civil servants and military are allowed to vote. Interesting, different, but hardly fascism.
05/07/09
05/07/09
Speaking as someone slightly left of center, I've never characterized Starship Troopers as fascist. Fascism, just like communism, is bandied about so casually these days that most people who talk about either really have no idea what either society really means.
I've never been as offended by Starship Troopers as some have been. It's just fun daydreaming with cool powered exoskeletons that has been copied badly far too many times in science fiction since then.
My only criticism with Troopers is that I doubt the society posited by Heinlein could ever come about nor would it work in the long run. But other than that, it's harmless fun really.
05/07/09
And as one of those crazy liberals, it does bother me that the way to gain citizenship is such a marshal one. Why can't dedication to other fields that build a society merit national inclusion, instead of just those defending, or fighting for it?
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05/07/09
That's a good observation, but you're confusing citizenship with enfranchisement. Starship Troopers images a caste society, whatever political label we put on it.
05/07/09
"According to data from the Department of Defense, more than 65,000 immigrants (non-US citizens and naturalized citizens) were serving on active duty in the US Armed Forces as of February 2008."
Or, you could simply pay attention when news mentions that a US casualty in Iraq was from Guatamala.
05/07/09
05/07/09
Since September 2001, US Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) has naturalized more than 37,250 foreign-born members of the US Armed Forces and granted posthumous citizenship to 111 service members. The current presence of immigrants in the military has a number of historical precedents. According to USCIS, the foreign born composed half of all military recruits by the 1840s and 20 percent of the 1.5 million service members in the Union Army during the Civil War.
05/07/09
...but thanks for trying!
05/07/09
Oh, yeah. if there's one thing that gets us liberals steamed it's the Greeks, Romans and Chinese citizenship policies. I just toss and turn over it. Then I think of jackasses like you and laugh myself to sleep.
05/07/09
You've danced through this thread being a complete ass to anyone who disagreed with you. Whats far more likely than your touching bedtime story is that you go to bed at night steamed that people out there might not share your opinion you psychotic freak, get a fucking life!
05/07/09
Postulated that juvenile delinquents were such b/c they weren't beaten *enough* by mommy and daddy, and that whipping kids was the only way to civilize them.
You couldn't vote unless you'd done two years of service in which you were at risk of dying, be it military or civil.
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But, I still think that the stories are much more broad, and can't necessarily be identified on the smaller things such as military tactics and equipment.