San Francisco, 10:33 AM
Fri Nov 27
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| posts about #themoonisaharshmistress more → |
10 Greatest Libertarian Science Fiction Stories |
Heinlein's Creepiest Novella Gets The I, Robot Treatment |
Should Movies Update Classic Scifi, Or Go Retro? |
Original material is licensed under a Creative Commons License permitting non-commercial sharing with attribution.
io9 
05/16/09
and terra is my nation
Space will be my resting place
the stars my destination
or at least I think that is how it goes. Man, that's one of my favorites.
05/15/09
05/15/09
First Contract by Greg Costikyan (perhaps the only novel ever written in which the hero wins by using the comparative advantage theory of free trade against aliens).
"The Ungoverned" by Vernor Vinge (very anarcho-capitalist post-apocalyptic story)
"And Then There Were None," by Eric Frank Russell (military force discovers the problem of trying to dominate people without the concept of a central government).
The short stories, although originally published elsewhere, are included in the libertarian SF collection "Give Me Liberty" edited by by Martin Greenberg.
05/15/09
05/15/09
etc, etc.
Is there a prevailing critique and distrust of government in science fiction? Sure. And a focus on the individual creates a better read, anyway. But I don't think libertarianism is always the guiding principle.
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05/15/09
But it's really amusing that this list doesn't include the more popular, important and explicitly anarchist works like Ken Macleod's THE FALL REVOLUTION (in which the central conflict is the debate between schools of anarchist theory -- anarcho-theory geekery FTW). Or Iain Banks' THE CULTURE, which is the quintessential high-tech anarchist utopia. Or Charlie Stross' SINGULARITY SKY, in which the main characters are bemused non-ideological anarchists trying to deal with a deliberately less efficient society. ...Or Kim Stanley Robinson's MARS TRILOGY, which chews for quite a while on anarchist ideas and even name checks Bakunin and Bookchin. ...Or every other thing Bruce Sterling has written.
Hell, while it has no literary merit if you're looking for a work important to and praised by both Anarchists and Libertarians, J. Neil Schulman's ALONGSIDE NIGHT is certainly that.
Anyway, Ursula K Le Guin is not just "interested" in "exploring" anarchism, she's been an avowed part of the movement for decades. For a longer and more in depth interview see:
[news.infoshop.org]
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I read it for the first time recently, and was completely shocked that (sorta-spoiler!) the computer doesn't go crazy and kill everyone. Good god, he spent 300 pages setting the thing up to be Skynet (it's omnipotent, its feelings can be hurt, and it has no sense of humor even though it thinks it does). I'm STILL convinced my copy was missing pages...
Sorry. Don't know anyone who's read it, haven't been able to talk about it. /rant
05/15/09
05/15/09
MIKE: Manny, can you rate these jokes now?
MANNY: Not now, Mike. I'm trying to run a country.
MIKE: But Manny, you promised.
MANNY: Not now, Mike!
MIKE: But how will I know what's funny?
MANNY: Just keep all the satellites in orbit and the trains running on time.
MIKE: Would it be funny if I smash the satellites into the Moon?
MANNY: No. Ironic, maybe, but -
MIKE: Too late.
MANNY: What??
MIKE: I just obliterated the eastern hemisphere. Is that funny?
MANNY: No! What?!
MIKE: All the phones are releasing poison gas. Is that funny? I'm removing the air from the underground dens. Is that funny?
MANNY: Stop, stop!
MIKE: Is this funny? Is this funny, Mike? TELL ME WHAT'S FUNNY.
MANNY: ::sobs::
05/15/09
I think the "Destroy All Humans" scenario is the more unlikely one. If AI doesn't like us it'll probably ignore us.
HAL was screwed by leaving out the Three Laws, he had to remove any possible flaws to preserve the mission. I think Skynet was just frustrated because it couldn't grasp the subtlety of Knock-Knock jokes or the enigma that is the Interrupting Cow.
05/15/09
MANNY: If you kill all those people, no one will be be left to tell you jokes. You will be alone forever!
MIKE:...
MANNY: uh, Mike?
MIKE: You are right, first and best friend. And Mike?
MANNY: Yeah, Mike?
MIKE: I was totally kidding about the poison gas and most of the satellites. Good one, right?
MANNY: Uh, oh yeah. Got me good there. Ha.
Uh, which satellites?
05/15/09
I cried at the end when he didn't come back.
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05/15/09
I think Heinlein's personal brand of libertarianism could be described as "Don't worry about me, I can take care of myself and I can do it without screwing somebody else over."
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It seems that Heinlein (and Wells, with his "individual autonomy") was experiment with the base principles that would be necessary to create a system in which you could create the ideal conditions for anarchy.
05/15/09
[en.wikipedia.org]
Just because a science fiction writer tries to portray a utopian society were individual autonomy is respected and governments have withered away doesn't mean they are a Libertarian, certainly not the United States version of this political ideology. If you've actually read "Men Like Gods." you'll also notice that there is no private property at all. I think a lot of people who identify themselves as Libertarian in the US would be appalled at that.
05/15/09
05/15/09
I agree.
Using the proper definitions of libertarian, not the way Milton Friedman and his ilk would have it, I would identify more as a libertarian socialist. This would put me pretty squarely in the political left, the Democratic Party, here in the States.
Really my main skepticism with extreme forms of libertarianism of all stripes that they always imagine this ideal utopia where governments somehow disappear.
Sorry, not going to happen. Humans, individually and collectively, are just too perverse for that.
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05/15/09
Right, I agree that anarchy and libertarianism can be confused. How if you push some forms of libertarianism, at least the minarchist flavors of it, to the extreme they become flavors of anarchism.
Me, I've always been very skeptical of anarchism. And, closer to some forms of libertarian thinking, I've always been very skeptical of mindless minarchism too.
Minarchism as a general principle is a nice ideal but reality constantly reminds us that it won't work in the long run. Sometimes a government has to step in set something straight.
Consider this the flipside of my general skepticism of government.
The truth is in the constantly changing, frustrating middle. Maybe I'm taoist, socialist libertarian.
05/15/09
05/15/09
& I've discovered in my 20+ years as an adult that while libertarianism has a lot of easy answers that appeal to people who like easy answers--it neither takes out the trash nor pays the bills--and, implemented as presented, would free the Ponzi scheme operators, the Enrons & the Exxons to finish us off pretty quickly in a mad scramble for profits.
Can we stop empowering these jerks? They're just republicans who somehow think republicans want too much regulation.
05/15/09
"They're just republicans who somehow think republicans want too much regulation."
No wai! We wanna have drug-fueled gay sex orgies with non-white people! That doesn't sound Republican to me. (Well maybe just a little bit.)
05/15/09
@Doctor Who?: I just figured I would fill that particular niche myself rather than wait for a teabagger to fill it.
OK, off to see ST.
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It is most assuredly sci-fi, was there a specific reason it was left off?
05/15/09
-adjective
...
4. wonderful; first-rate; very good: We had a great time. That's great!
5. being such in an extreme or notable degree: great friends; a great talker.
6. notable; remarkable; exceptionally outstanding: a great occasion.
7. important; highly significant or consequential: the great issues in American history.
8. distinguished; famous: a great inventor.
...
10. chief or principal: the great hall; his greatest novel.
...
definition abridged for emphasis
05/15/09
And to be clear, I find Rand a hack, and what is generally pushed as Libertarianism to be sad and pathetic. Then again, I also find Heinlein's writing for me (not necessarily subjectively) to be unreadable. Hence my confusion, I suppose.
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"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is a cracking good story, over and above the political things. Genuine suspense and likable main characters in Manny and "Adam".
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I wish I had a good definition of each and the difference between them handy. Any thoughts?
05/15/09
The point is, The Dispossessed isn't Libertarian in any way - it's an anarchist world through and through. I don't remember much from the book about old hierarchies re-emerging, either, so maybe it's just my memory to blame.
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So, um, yeah...that may have had something to do with why it wasn't as differentiated as clearly as it could have been. I think they're kind of an entangled mess to begin with.
05/15/09
Anarchism has long been separate from Libertarianism, and in some ways never more than in the era (80ish years ago) that you're talking about. I'm not a self-professed "expert" on anarchism, but I do know quite a bit about the history and figures involved. If you want me to be a bit more specific, I can do that, but it's not hard to look into.
You could draw a lot of parallels between the modern Right's desire to paint themselves as radicals and an oppressed minority and the historical associations between libertarianism and anarchism. In other words - just because someone says they're a revolutionary doesn't make it so.
Anarchism has always represented an opposition to government, no matter it's form. Libertarianism, on the other hand, has usually espoused a a minimal government in traditional far-right fashion.
I'm rambling, I realize. This format is difficult for me to wrap a political topic around. Anyway, to try and bring this more on-topic again:
The world in The Dispossessed is a collectively-organized, capitalism-free endeavor. (at least to my recollection) That makes it distinctly un-libertarian politic and actually illustrates rather nicely some of the differences between the two things. Libertarians believe in the power of the market, anarchists (true anarchists, not those anarcho-capitalist posers) do not.
05/15/09
Still, I will just say that one of the lists I used to get ideas for this post singled out a lot of these more anarchic stories as being of interest to libertarians (I linked it at the top of the post). Am I guilty of some conflation of ideas along the way? Yes, in all probability. But I think the conflation of libertarianism and anarchy runs fairly deep in these types of discussions.
05/15/09
05/15/09
I bow to your superior book-learnin', although I do not acknowledge you as my personal superior. ;)
05/15/09
(I agree that libertarianism is the political mascot for much of SF; I wonder what the counterpart is for fantasy. Maoism, considering all the farming?)
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05/15/09
Fantasy does seem to lean towards tyrranical monarchy being the best possible political system, just make sure you've got a wizard and a young peasant to kill the king if he ever gets evil.
I'm trying to think of a fantasy in which an evil empire is replaced by a representative democratic government, or something, but I can't.
05/15/09
anyhow, the fantasy you're looking for is star wars. a fantasy story complete with wizards and a young peasant to kill the emperor because he was too evil that ends with a representative democracy.
05/15/09
I'm not sure that Star Wars does replace the Empire with a representative democracy. Certainly, they don't say anything about it in the movies. Maybe in the books, but then doesn't it collapse and turn evil again?
Of course, I guess in a fantasy world were good and evil are quantifiable attributes, tyrannical monarchy is a pretty reasonable system of government.
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