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Sat Dec 5
11 posts in the last 24 hours
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Just as there is a multitude of creatures on Earth, there could be other beings, even intelligent ones, created by God. This does not contradict our faith, because we cannot put limits on God's creative freedom.
@Bootknife-Jackson: The Catholic Church does not have a problem with Evolution [en.wikipedia.org] although some other Christian churches do. The issue they have is the notion that evolution is a proof of the non-existence of God. #v
@drukus: First off: you're welcome. Secondly: not at all, I’m just finding fault in the stance (be it yours or otherwise) that Evolution is proof of the non-existence of God. But I really don't want this to turn into Inherit the Wind or anything; I’m just here for a good time!
@Bootknife-Jackson: Okay, I see what is happening here. "The issue they have is the notion that evolution is a proof of the non-existence of God." was meant to mean that the Church does not disagree with evolution, they disagree with the idea that it mean God does not exist. I understand the scientific proof for the existence of Evolution but that is where it ends for me. It does not go to disprove God's existence.
@drukus: Exactly! i don't understand why it has to be one or the other. well, okay, i understand that some people read the old testament literally, as opposed to understanding them as morality tales designed to illustrate pillars of that belief system, and are therefore bound to the idea that man must have been created in his current evolutional state- even though the text does not ever state such a thing- only that we were 'created in his image'. BUT, the same groups believe God to be the Alpha and the Omega, that right there encompasses a pretty broad range of what exactly that image is.
i think a big reason for Christianity’s success over the last 2000 years lies with its ability to pander to people's deep rooted fear of not being pre-destined for greatness, their need to be elevated above all others.
I’m going to assume that I’ve forced an impasse with that last bit... #calendar
But riddle me this mr. pope man. What if they're gay aliens? I find it funny i read this article a day after i read another one stating that homosexuals aren't allowed in the vatican. #v
@Dr Emilio Lizardo: Galileo said, specifically, the church was wrong. That's why he was killed. Not because what he said went against the church, but because Galileo went out of his wy to say the church was wrong.
If Galileo had simply said "The Earth orbits the moon" instead "The church is wrong, the Earth Orbits the moon" he'd still be alive today as a zombie-Galileo. #v
@Dr Emilio Lizardo: Implication and statement are the difference. Do you really expect the serfs at the time to think that Galileo was contradicting the church unless either he or the church said so? #v
@metaslugx: I don't think the serfs could read. I don't think they knew what was going on or cared. The stars were shiny points of light irrelavent to their nasty, brutish, short lives. By threatening to educate them, even indirectly, Galileo threatened the church's power and they would not allow that.
Besides, this is only one example of the church apologizing late. It took them over 50 years to apologize for not denouncing the nazi's and over a century to apologize to Darwin. #v
Again, as noted, the Church has long made theological accommodations for this. Not a whole lot, because there hasn't been any contact, but it's been discussed before.
Also, J.C. died for *our* sins, not those of the seven-tentacled Hydra from the planet K-Tron Five. They'd need their own savior.
As for the belief that intelligent aliens would conflict with the tenet that man was created in God's image, "image" isn't a physical literal, but a spiritual one. That doesn't automatically preclude that aliens would be created in the same image (although, of course, it would be hard to square that if said aliens were intelligent cannibals... is THAT God's image too?).
Finally... this is edition 1,508,408 of "What would the Catholics think?" navel-gazing by the media. I always find the bias fascinating-- no one ever seems to ask, "How would the discovery of life on other planets affect *Islam*?" Or the Hindu? Or Buddhists? #v
@Daveinva: Maybe those seven-tentacled Hydra from the planet K-Tron Five don't sin at all. Therefore, no one needs to die for their sins.
As per your comment about God's Image: Human Cannibals. They exist. Were they also created in God's image?
Also, Buddhists wouldn't be affected by alien life at all. Buddhism itself isn't really a religion, but a philosophy, and has no God of its own. However, Buddhists can, and often do, practice other religions. #v
@psychiccheese: Buddhism is a religion in many countries. At its most abstract forms it is indeed barely a religion at all, but relatively few practice it in that form, instead opting for more down to earth versions, so to speak.
The mainstream Buddhist denominations have gods, heavens and hells in abundance - it's just that the Karmic law and pursuit of enlightenment tie them all together. #v
@Daveinva: you know, there were guys in ancient Judea who thought that "Christianity wasn't meant to spread to guys in distant Britain" or Asia, or something. 2000 years ago, the Americas might as well have been another planet. #v
@Lightice: Yes--they're often reinterpretations of either Hindu Gods, or whatever local cosmology existed when Buddhism came to the area.
But I remember a really interesting story told by Robert Thurman about Tibetan Buddhism, where the Buddha goes to visit Brahman (the supreme diety) to ask about the origins of the universe (and thus the origins of suffering), and Brahman tells him in secret that the universe was already there when he arrived on the scene--but he tells the other Gods he created it to stop them from worrying. Brahman also asked the Buddha to come back and teach him the secret of enlightenment if he ever discovers it...
So, at least in the Tibetan tradition, there are Gods--but even the Gods seek liberation from the cycle of rebirth and suffering. In other words: over the eons, basically everybody gets reborn as a God at some point or another... but enlightenment is still preferable. #v
So he's saying that it's possibly intelligent life exist. Notice that he makes no comment on how he would treat them. We all know how Emperor Palpatine felt about aliens.
(ps. No offence if you're Catholic and he's the infallible celestially-ordained leader of your Church. It just doesn't change the fact that he looks a whole heck of a lot like the Dark Emperor). #v
@RandomFrequentFlierDent: Although that being said, the Emperor stopped being remotely frightening for me the moment I realised he was also the Mr Kipling's Cakes voiceover guy:
'Oh I'm afraid this station will be very much active when your friends arrive. In the meantime, would you care for an apple pie? They are EXCEEDINGLY dark sidey' #v
@Alasdair5000: Now I have the mental image of one of the Emperor's Royal Guard bringing out a serving tray during the Death Star throne room show down and Darth Vader attempting to mash one through the grill on his helmet. It's all very Robot Chicken-y. #v
Well sure. The Vatican also acknowledges evolution. Man, they adapted to this sort of stuff the first time it was an issue, with heliocentric solar models. #v
@mordicai: if by "first time" you mean three centuries later, then yes. The Vatican didn't apologize for mistreating Galileo until 1992.
JP II said evolution was just dandy in 1996 but Pope Benny added a caveat in 2008, saying that evolution was probably true, but Darwin was still a dick for being right and contradicting the Bible. #v
The Church has actually discussed the possibility of extraterrestrial life several times. Nicholas of Kues posited the idea back in the 15th century, when it was sort of curious thought. Giordarno Bruno brought it up again, but in such a way that got him executed for heresy (unlike Nicholas).
More recently the Baltimore Catechism on Lesson 5, question 51 states "it is possible that there are intelligent beings created by God on other planets of the universe, because God's power is unlimited."
Strange as it may seem, this isn't new for the Catholic Church. #v
They're preparing the Church to deal with alien intelligences. It could potentially pay off big in the long-term, at little cost, so I suppose it's a good move for them.
It's interesting to see organizations take aliens as a serious topic.
I wonder if the Vatican has ever shared its views on AI? #v
@Prolorn: That's a really interesting point and to the best of my knowledge, they haven't. If you can track 'em down there are two linked radio plays 'Alpha' and 'Omega' that actually explore that, 'Alpha' in particular. Last time I checked, Zombie Astronaut had them. #v
@Prolorn: I've got a feeling they wouldn't like 'em. We'd have made it, yes? Church not big on man creating life.
I would give all my limbs and everything I own to see it debated WITH an AI though. If it didn't just descend into Palpatine or his reps storming out. At least not for half an hour. #v
@Evil Tortie's Mom: Darn you for actually turning my joke into a legitimate point. I knew I should've brushed up on my Mormon theology before wandering into Joseph Smith territory. #v
11/12/09
...and yet evolution does. (begin slow clap) #v
11/12/09
Vatican acknowledges possibility of extra-terrestrial life.
Do they realize that THAT means the Old Testament, the New Testament and the whole shebang that they are putting on - is essentially fake?
Or are they just going to put out Bible 2.0 and just update the wor(L)d of God?
You know... like Coca-Cola did with St. Nick. #v
11/13/09
11/13/09
11/13/09
...now about these tacos... #v
11/19/09
11/19/09
Thirdly: so the tacos....they're coming, yes?
#calendar
11/20/09
11/20/09
i think a big reason for Christianity’s success over the last 2000 years lies with its ability to pander to people's deep rooted fear of not being pre-destined for greatness, their need to be elevated above all others.
I’m going to assume that I’ve forced an impasse with that last bit...
#calendar
11/11/09
Now they are trying to cover their asses.Remember when you got burned at the stake by them for believeing in something other than Christianity. #v
11/11/09
Too bad they're still so stubborn on more down to Earth matters, like contraception and homosexuality. #v
11/11/09
I got an A-
Those were the days #v
11/11/09
11/11/09
11/11/09
11/11/09
11/11/09
11/15/09
If Galileo had simply said "The Earth orbits the moon" instead "The church is wrong, the Earth Orbits the moon" he'd still be alive today as a zombie-Galileo. #v
11/16/09
11/16/09
11/16/09
Besides, this is only one example of the church apologizing late. It took them over 50 years to apologize for not denouncing the nazi's and over a century to apologize to Darwin. #v
11/16/09
And Galileo was attacked because the part of "The church is wrong, the earth orbits the ..." that serfs understand is just "The church is wrong" #v
11/11/09
11/11/09
First, that Davies guy is not very smart.
Again, as noted, the Church has long made theological accommodations for this. Not a whole lot, because there hasn't been any contact, but it's been discussed before.
Also, J.C. died for *our* sins, not those of the seven-tentacled Hydra from the planet K-Tron Five. They'd need their own savior.
As for the belief that intelligent aliens would conflict with the tenet that man was created in God's image, "image" isn't a physical literal, but a spiritual one. That doesn't automatically preclude that aliens would be created in the same image (although, of course, it would be hard to square that if said aliens were intelligent cannibals... is THAT God's image too?).
Finally... this is edition 1,508,408 of "What would the Catholics think?" navel-gazing by the media. I always find the bias fascinating-- no one ever seems to ask, "How would the discovery of life on other planets affect *Islam*?" Or the Hindu? Or Buddhists? #v
11/11/09
As per your comment about God's Image: Human Cannibals. They exist. Were they also created in God's image?
Also, Buddhists wouldn't be affected by alien life at all. Buddhism itself isn't really a religion, but a philosophy, and has no God of its own. However, Buddhists can, and often do, practice other religions. #v
11/11/09
The mainstream Buddhist denominations have gods, heavens and hells in abundance - it's just that the Karmic law and pursuit of enlightenment tie them all together. #v
11/11/09
11/11/09
But I remember a really interesting story told by Robert Thurman about Tibetan Buddhism, where the Buddha goes to visit Brahman (the supreme diety) to ask about the origins of the universe (and thus the origins of suffering), and Brahman tells him in secret that the universe was already there when he arrived on the scene--but he tells the other Gods he created it to stop them from worrying. Brahman also asked the Buddha to come back and teach him the secret of enlightenment if he ever discovers it...
So, at least in the Tibetan tradition, there are Gods--but even the Gods seek liberation from the cycle of rebirth and suffering. In other words: over the eons, basically everybody gets reborn as a God at some point or another... but enlightenment is still preferable. #v
11/11/09
So he's saying that it's possibly intelligent life exist. Notice that he makes no comment on how he would treat them. We all know how Emperor Palpatine felt about aliens.
(ps. No offence if you're Catholic and he's the infallible celestially-ordained leader of your Church. It just doesn't change the fact that he looks a whole heck of a lot like the Dark Emperor). #v
11/11/09
11/11/09
11/11/09
'Oh I'm afraid this station will be very much active when your friends arrive. In the meantime, would you care for an apple pie? They are EXCEEDINGLY dark sidey' #v
11/11/09
11/11/09
11/11/09
JP II said evolution was just dandy in 1996 but Pope Benny added a caveat in 2008, saying that evolution was probably true, but Darwin was still a dick for being right and contradicting the Bible. #v
11/13/09
11/13/09
11/11/09
More recently the Baltimore Catechism on Lesson 5, question 51 states "it is possible that there are intelligent beings created by God on other planets of the universe, because God's power is unlimited."
Strange as it may seem, this isn't new for the Catholic Church. #v
11/10/09
It's interesting to see organizations take aliens as a serious topic.
I wonder if the Vatican has ever shared its views on AI? #v
11/11/09
11/11/09
I would give all my limbs and everything I own to see it debated WITH an AI though. If it didn't just descend into Palpatine or his reps storming out. At least not for half an hour. #v
11/10/09
11/11/09
Gasp! #v
11/11/09
11/11/09