-Jay Billington Bulworth

"Damn"

-Granny

mmcnary

Your response is akin to you claiming there is supposedly a "Rock Animal" and when asked to define it and identify the fundamental characteristics which distinguish it from all other animals, you instead simply define "Animal". That does nothing to identify the supposed type of animal you are talking about, let alone identify how an animal can be based on 'rock'.

That you have persistently failed to provide such a definition and such fundamental characteristics indicates you either do not know them or they don't exist. Either way, as previously indicated, an undefined term such as "African culture" is as meaningless as "rock animal" or "zootle". They are noise - nothing more.

radcap

Well, so long as people DEFEND racism, it is quite true his dream will not come true. But racism is a matter of choice, not immutable nature. Men can choose to be racist - or choose not to be racist. So the only thing that stands in the way of MLK's "dream" becoming reality are those who defend racism. And that is exactly what you do in your post: resoundingly *defend* racism. In fact, you claim racism is completely natural - that people are "happy to be so. Well, *you* may be "happy" to be a racist, but please refrain from lumping everyone into your racist collective.

The attempt to conflate "culture" with race - or to make "race" into a culture - is simply the attempt to legitimize racism and racist views. It is the attempt to keep MLK's "dream" just that - a dream. It is the attempt to define people by the color of their skin and NOT by the content of their character.

The fact that there are many others who may agree with you that racism should not be condemned and who "hope" it continues is not a justification of racism. Such collective subjectivism isn't validation for the KKK and it isn't validation for "AfroFuturism" or any other form of racism.

Put simply, the claim "A million frenchmen can't be wrong" is not rational support for anything. The mere fact that a given number of people believe something does not make it reality, no matter how much you wish or "hope" otherwise.

Racism is evil. I am sad to see it not only defended but actually promoted here.

--

Oh - and you said: "I hate to break it to you, people of African descent the world over "share" slavery. Their ancestors were either taken away and/or sold off" This is patently FALSE. All "people of African descent the world over" (let alone all blacks in America) are NOT all descended from ancestors who were "either taken away and/or sold off". Put simply, all people of "African descent" are not descendants of slaves. And all blacks in America are CERTAINLY NOT all descendants of slaves. Such a claim is as ignorant as it is absurd.

Slavery is not the "culture" nor the "history" of all blacks in America, any more than tobacco trading is the "culture" or "history" of all whites in America. Both assertions are absurdly racist claims - and, again, I am surprised to see them defended promoted here.

radcap

Race is a social construct. Period.

ceejeemcbeegee

I totally understand your point of view: anything that delineates any group of people as different (read: not white) is racist. You're going to have a real hard time living in the world with that attitude, because, guess what? That is the world we live in, and it should be celebrated, not defined as racist. There are commonalities that groups of people share that set them apart from others, and they are happy to be so. When they write, compose or just even exist from a different perspective a from what is considered the norm as a collective, and choose to label it, there's nothing wrong. Just like, in primary (elementary) school, history was the general term for african history. If we were going to study any other continent it would get the label for whatever continent we were going to study e.g. European history. Still all history, just studying history that's different from ours. Labeling them as superior or inferior is where the problem starts.

Take a nuclear family. Just because a person is born or adopted into that family makes it part of a defining characteristic of them, whether or not they like it. What they choose as an individual is up to them, but they belong to that group either way.

And yes, I hate to break it to you, people of African descent the world over "share" slavery. Their ancestors were either taken away and/or sold off, resulting in their families being ripped apart (please refer to previous note on the importance of extended family). Obviously you think that our collective memories might be a tad wonky or that the history books might have made a boo boo somewhere. The Asians who's forefathers worked on the railroads will have that in common. Just like all Americans have that little incident called the Boston Tea Party :). That does not mean those occurences defines all of their being.

Here is a definition of culture, please note there are many (i.e broad range, more than just one) defining characteristics. It does not boil down to one particular item. Also note that all previous examples i listed are considered under the umbrella.

culture

Integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behaviour that is both a result of and integral to the human capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations. Culture thus consists of language, ideas, beliefs, customs, taboos, codes, institutions, tools, techniques, works of art, rituals, ceremonies, and symbols. It has played a crucial role in human evolution, allowing human beings to adapt the environment to their own purposes rather than depend solely on natural selection to achieve adaptive success. Every human society has its own particular culture, or sociocultural system. Variation among cultures is attributable to such factors as differing physical habitats and resources; the range of possibilities inherent in areas such as language, ritual, and social organization; and historical phenomena such as the development of links with other cultures. An individual's attitudes, values, ideals, and beliefs are greatly influenced by the culture (or cultures) in which he or she lives. Culture change takes place as a result of ecological, socioeconomic, political, religious, or other fundamental factors affecting a society

-Britannica Concise Encyclopaedia.

Or, the world may just have it wrong and you have the right to be insultingly dismissive about the impact of certain historical occurences on a group of people.

And here is where i get off this wagon.

twreckx

You did not do this - unless you consider last name address, witchcraft, left hand taboo, and extended family importance, to be the defining characteristics of "African culture". Does the fact that you continue to fail to define the term or provide its *delineating* characteristics mean that the term "African culture" has none, or that you are unable to provide them?

Either way, as I indicated previously, without such a definition or defining characteristics, any discussion which involves such an unidentified concept is necessarily meaningless. It's literally jibberish.

"slavery (oohh, touchy subject) is something that Africans and African-Americans share" What facts of reality lead you to the conclusion that all blacks in America supposedly "share" slavery? Were all blacks in America slaves? Are all blacks in America even from Africa? Were all Africans slaves? Were all Africans involved in slavery actually slaves - or were some slave owners and enslavers of their fellow Africans themselves?

Put simply, the claim that all blacks in America (or all Africans for that matter) "share" slavery is factually untrue. And it is a prime example of the racism of which I speak. Simply because a person's skin is the same color as other human beings does not mean they "share" ANYTHING in common. For instance, one would not rationally claim Asians in America "share" railroad building, even though many Asians were involved in the construction of the US railroads at one time. It is disturbing that such racism is considered acceptable when it comes to blacks.

"If tomorrow, an Asian author writes some futuristic sci-fi based on Idi Amin and the expulsion of the Asian population from Uganda, how will it be classified?" As sci-fi. Trying to divide writings according to race is *blatant* and boldfaced racism. As such, I am not at all sure why you "hope" it will in fact be divided into particular racial categories. Such categorizations are, by definition, racist and thus actually *perpetuate* racism.

So much for Martin Luther King's dream that men will "not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." Put simply, the rational response to racism is not *more* racism.

radcap

PS: Diaspora (of all kinds) always complain about the weather (too hot! Too cold! It's always snowing! Almost always followed by, I want to go home!). It's kind of an inside joke.

twreckx

"perhaps I misconstrued your intended tone and your use of scare quotes." I would say that is the case, since they are not "scare quotes" but merely quotes - ie merely the identification of what has been explicitly stated by another poster (and are used in conjunction with ' marks, which serve to identify paraphrased statements). In other words, they are used to explicitly identify the arguments made by others here so that claims of misrepresentation may not validly be made.

"The fact that I have gotten some productive leads out of it has made this discussion useful enough for my purposes." I am happy you were able to derive something useful from the thread.

--

With that said, to answer the question presented in the title of the thread: "What Do You Think About the New Afrofuturism?" I would have to say it seems to be just the same old racism. I think the same thing about it as I would about something called the "New AryanFuturism". In other words, I think the same thing about it as I would about a 'tradition of AryanFuturism, in which writers, artists, and creators mingle Aryan culture with futuristic imagery and ideas." It's blatant racism.

Is there something OTHER than this one should think about it?

radcap

Grey_Area

I have pointed to external resources because my project is meant to study how people talk about themselves in relation to these ideas. If my repeated attempts at explanation are vague, it's because the source material is, too. The reason I asked the editors to pose this question was to see how people with an interest in space/future motifs might interpret this sort of application. As I said, this is primarily exploratory. The fact that I have gotten some productive leads out of it has made this discussion useful enough for my purposes.

As for personal attack, perhaps I misconstrued your intended tone and your use of scare quotes. If they were not meant to sound condescending, you have my sincere apologies.

Dolly-At-School

The problem comes when *objections* are made to accurately identifying *as* racism that which one is studying. For instance, a statement like: "I think there is a practical difference between writing SF and joining a violent organization" does nothing to change the fact of the racism in both instances. In other words, the *manner* in which one decides to *act* upon one's racism (be it writing or violence) doesn't change the *fact* of its racism. It doesn't change the fact that the writing is racist or the violence is racist.

I am curious as to why such an effort is being put into suggesting otherwise.

Also, *again*, you point me to outside sources. And again I find no definition of the term "AfroFuturism" (though Seepe's work certainly seems to point specifically to the color of the skin of the writer as the defining feature - ie blatant racism). So, again, since I don't see a definition of the term, nor the identification of its delineating characteristics, perhaps you could point them out in the sources you reference. Or better yet, since it is the object of your "project" should you not be able to define for me *yourself* that which it is you are supposedly studying? Or are you indicating that you are unable to specifically and explicitly identify that which you are asking others here to comment upon? If so, how do you expect anyone to provide a rational response? For instance, if you asked posters here their thoughts on the "specific phenomenon of Zootle within the greater context of science fiction and pop culture in general" wouldn't you have to be able to specifically identify what the term Zootle means before you could expect to have ANY form of meaningful discussion? If so, why is it expected a rational or meaningful discussion can occur if "AfroFuturism" is not and cannot be defined?

Finally, you imply that the questions which have been asked of you are somehow a "personal attack" against you. It is unclear exactly how asking for the identification of the subject you are investigating is somehow an attack upon your person rather than upon the ideas (or more specifically the lack thereof) which have been put forth. Would you care to explain the justification for your *accusation*?

radcap

[en.wikipedia.org]

"Drexciya combined a faceless, underground, anti-mainstream media stance with mythological, sci-fi narratives, to help heighten the dramatic effect of their music. In this respect they were similar to artists within and close to the Detroit collective Underground Resistance.

Their name referred to a myth comparable to Plato's myth of Atlantis, which the group revealed in the sleeve notes to their 1997 album "The Quest". "Drexciya" was an underwater country populated by the unborn children of pregnant African women thrown off of slave ships that had adapted to breathe underwater in their mother's wombs."

Brian

If you care to continue reading about Afrofuturism, here is more about what the movement's members have to say:
[www.afrofuturism.net]

The Wikipedia page also has more links:
[en.wikipedia.org]

Dolly-At-School

Perhaps you could point them out.

Also, you indicate that the label "Afrofuturist" cannot apply to people just because of skin color, heritage, or nationality. But you indicate that it not "unfair" to apply rational judgment to people who DO explain themselves in such terms.

Well, I agree. And the term (which I have consistently and correctly applied in my posts) for people who "explain themselves" in terms of "skin color" is "racist" - just as the term for the 'social construction' of "identity" based on race is "racism". I am sorry if you find the identification of these facts not to your liking. But your 'tastes' do not change these facts.

Is it your suggestion that racism is NOT something to be 'written off' - ie condemned?

Interestingly, your statements about socially constructed racial identity strongly suggest that the term "AfroFuturism" is racism and racist ideas 'mingled with futuristic images and ideas'. I wonder if you would find 'writing off expressions of racial identity because one disagrees with the way the KKK socially constructs race' also "a bit Cartesian" for your "taste".

What distinguishes "AfroFuturism" from a "KKKFuturism" or any other works of white racial identity (futuristic or otherwise)?

See why a definition of the term is so important?

radcap

Perhaps you could point it out there.

Also, you indicate that the label "Afrofuturist" cannot apply to people just because of skin color, heritage, or nationality. But you indicate that it not "unfair" to apply rational judgment to people who DO explain themselves in such terms.

Well, I agree. And the term (which I have consistently and correctly applied in my posts) for people who "explain themselves" in terms of "skin color" is "racist" - just as the term for the 'social construction' of "identity" based on race is "racism". I am sorry if you find the identification of these facts not to your liking. But your 'tastes' do not change these facts.

Interestingly, your statements about socially constructed racial identity strongly suggest that the term "AfroFuturism" is racism and racist ideas 'mingled with futuristic images and ideas'. I wonder if you would find 'writing off expressions of racial identity because one disagrees with the way the KKK socially constructs race' is also "a bit Cartesian" for your "taste".

What distinguishes "AfroFuturism" from a "KKKFuturism" or any other works of white racial identity (futuristic or otherwise)?

See why a definition of the term is important?

radcap

I am all for rational discussion, and it was certainly not my intention to provoke such passionate argument about race. For the record, I agree with clear statement of ideological boundaries, too; I just find that writing off expressions of racial identity because one disagrees with the way people socially construct race is a bit Cartesian for my taste. While it is true that one cannot apply the label "Afrofuturist" to people just because of skin color, heritage, or nationality, I don't think it's unfair or presumptuous to analyze the artistic output of people who explain themselves in those terms.

Dolly-At-School

First, I am sorry, but that is not a definition (loose or otherwise) of "African culture". Nor is it even a list of its defining characteristics. It is simply the identification of a few random 'cultural categories' ("weather complaints"?!). They don't tell you WHAT the "African culture" supposedly is. It doesn't tell you what type of "parental upbringing", nor how it differs from any other "parental upbringing". Same with all the other categories. And saying "African culture" "sometimes" includes shared music means that music is explicitly NOT a defining feature of such a "culture", since one can apparently be part of the so-called "African culture" without a common music background.

Secondly, considering JUST the categories you provide, is it your claim that "AfroFuturism" - the thing where "writers, artists, and creators mingle traditional African culture with futuristic imagery and ideas" - is thus "writers, artists and creators mingling the shared parental upbringing, schooling, language, politics, colonial history, and weather complaints which are supposedly unique to a specific part of Africa, with futuristic imagery and ideas"? If so, then how exactly would you claim a book like "Kindred" (which is held up as an example of "AfroFuturism") falls into the categories you have identified?

At this point, I have to say my questions about "AfroFuturism" hasn't been answered. I will repeat them for clarity:

What exactly are some of the *defining* characteristics of so-called "African culture". (If it supposedly includes a particular type of 'parental upbringing', then WHAT that upbringing IS and what distinguishes it from other types of parental upbringing needs to be identified). In other words, what specifically distinguishes this "African culture" from any other "culture"? And is this "culture" limited only to those with black skin (or only those with the same parental upbringing or 'weather complaints' - ie if one had different schooling, or different parental upbringing, or different language, etc, then one can never be said to belong to the "African culture", thus ruling out almost every black person in the United States)?

Is "AfroFuturism" simply science fiction written by individuals of a particular race? Or, is "AfroFuturism" simply science fiction written about individuals of a particular race? Or, is "AfroFuturism" simply science fiction written about the random collection of experiences of some people located in a limited part of the continent of Africa?

As I said previously, to rationally discuss an idea, one must first define the idea one wants to discuss. So far, that has not been done. And, without definition, one's terms - and thus one's discussion - are meaningless.

radcap

codydog

Dolly-At-School

zorazero

He is too broad and genre smashing a talent to be categorized at all. However, our head librarian is an African American woman, so she is probably doing some outreach type stuff.

I read all his stuff up to Dahgren, and don't remember any overt skin color stuff, but that a long time ago.

There is a Neil Gaimin "Anansi Boys" book, that might apply, i think Gaiman is a cauc, but i do not know that for sure.

I seem to remember some overtly racial stuff in "Dangerous Visions" I would be surprised if there was not.

codydog

zorazero

Anyway, in this day and age people recieve cultural influence from all over the world, not just the area they were brought up in. As there are no practical physical differences between any of the races of humans, any racism around comes from lack of understanding of other cultures, not how much melanin you have or the shape of your hair follicles. People just use these as indicators to make assumptions about someone's behaviour based on their physical characteristics.

Just need more communication between cultures is all. And less religion maybe. Religionism is more relevant than racism.

MrLister

Otherwise, let's mix up the races! I volunteer to be the first 'adam' [I've got roma, swede, dutch, english, basque, and mexican].

aspiringexpatriate

kurwinsky

@radcap: As an African (born, bred and 80% educated) there is such a thing as an African culture. The definition is very, very, very loose (and to note, the word "Africa" is usually used to describe Sub-Saharan Africa) but most Africans that I know will have somewhat similar experiences of parental upbringing, school, language (whether or not you speak a traditional language), complaints about the weather, politics, colonial history and sometimes music. Whether or not they are asian, white or black Africans, born in the East, West, or Southern bits, we share these. These are experiences that are unique, that you won't get anywhere else. To break down further, e.g., in West Africa there are only 2 English speaking countries (I've lived in both) therefore they have more in common than the other Francophone nations. But West African's all eat garri.
What I've also realised is that if anyone has lived in Africa and truly immerses themselves in the culture, they can speak of the same experiences. And I guess that's what culture boils down to; overarching experiences that a group of people share.

Long post. Sorry.

twreckx

But I believe the Chinese have a major socio-economic crash in their near future. China is split into too many subgroups and the Old Men in Beijing have been pushing them down too long. Expect something after the '08 Olympics.

Nebris

Nebris

NeoPoliticus

To discuss any issue rationally, it is necessary to define terms. So what exactly are some of the *defining* characteristics of so-called "African culture". What specifically distinguishes this "African culture" from any other "culture"? And is this "culture" limited only to those with black skin? If so, why? Or, if it is not limited by skin color, why is it identified as "African" culture? What is "African" about it?

Is "AfroFuturism" simply science fiction written by individuals of a particular race?

radcap

[digg.com]

Barack Obama's recent statements concerning the direction of the civil space program in his potential administration is the cause of confusion at best, of very grave concern at worse. Since the conventional wisdom has made Senator Obama the probable Democratic nominee for President in 2008, an examination of his proposed space policy is in order:

[digg.com]

Maliboo00

I don't want to speak for African Americans, but the first thought is that they feel alien, or as aliens, strangers in a strange land.

Are you using Hendrix? He used lots of SF imagery.. And James Blood Ulmer (from Clarkesdale MS) and Sun Ra, (from Alabama) were both blues guys who had to go to outer space to get gigs, or to establish identities. I know a local black musician who has some strong identity with flying saucers, but i haven't talked to him about it much.

And you might well check out Swamp Dogg. [www.swampdogg.net]

I don't know if he does SF, i think he did in a sort of Hot Rod way, but he is weird enough for three people.

I would, myself draw a parallel with the "Rat Fink" monster shirt craze of the early 60's in the hot rod culture, where kids identified with grotesque monsters, because they felt alienated.

Late Bebop and Funk is something i know less about, but there should be lots and lots there.

There is a blues link, but it's not coming to me.

Lots of white odd guys "went to space" Link Wray and "Moondog" come to mind..

And Screaming Jay Hawkins invented the horror/Alice Cooper/ Marylin Manson/creepy rock thing, but he was more voodoo.

Oh, i remember. Bo Diddley. See if you can find his "Good to be Free' self produced album from the 80's. At least one SF song about building a spaceship with a waterbed.. "Stabilize Yourself" Great album. Weird too.

That's all i can think off off hand.

codydog

Dolly-At-School

Charismatic speakers who have no true moral character of worth have led many nations throughout history down a grim path.

Yes, I know...I just put a big target on my back.

fraketyfrak

I'm not quite sure how you would express the

"I'm trying to make sense of cultural expressions that explicitly treat the notion of race using specific motifs."

Is this a project in a media, or a life quest or...you could tell me more, svp. There is an email or website in my profile, i think

As for my book, i cover from the Colonial Period to the Birth of Rock and Roll.

That is quite enough, for even the sketchiest survey.. And research is worse than salted peanuts.. You can't ever stop.

codydog

Your manuscript sounds really interesting. Are you working with a specific time period, or doing more of an overview?

Dolly-At-School

Or, "Don't call me whitey..."

codydog

That's Winston Salem NC, a place with a strong Black Middle class for a long time. You could look it up.

codydog

codydog

They all had to make places for themselves, on their own merit. But they also were, and had to be accepted by whites, without groveling. Remarkable people.

I have just finished a 140,000 word MS on the "Black/white interface in American Music," and i wish to state, after my research, that most of what everybody "knows" about American music is wrong. Both the pop version of history, and the Marxist academic ethnomusicology versions have serious holes.

codydog

Kind of funny to an outsider. But don't get in the middle.

codydog

@Chris Meredith: That is one of the more sensible things i ever read on the subject. Have you read Keith Richburg's "Out OF America?" (not SF, reporting) As for drugs, i dunno.. As one of the old hippies, there were Black Hippies, more Black Beats, but hard to make a solid comment.. Both the Beats and the earlie hippies AKA "The Freaks" were such a collection of misfits, that any rules were suspect.

These were different from the "Hypes" and the "Teenie Boppers" that were when the gestalts became more mainstream.

But i agree, i live in the south, in a very mixed neighborhood, and the gangbangers and the dookie drawer guys come in all shades.

codydog

And for the record, guys, I'm only researching people who explicitly associate aliens and their self-conceptions (which, yes, includes physical appearance) within their own music or writings. If that's not individual choice, I don't know what is.

Dolly-At-School

If you and your folks love me and my folks like
Me and my folks love you and your folks,
If there ever was folks
That ever ever was poor...

If you and your thing dig me and my thing
Like me and my thing dig you and your thing,
And we all got a thing,
Yeah, and it's a very good thing...

Ha! But if in our fears, we don't learn to trust each other,
And if in our tears, we don't learn to share with your brother,
You know that hate is gonna keep on multiplying...
And you know that man is gonna keep right on dying!

Obama wishes he were half as eloquent. Now, getting back on topic: do you think there are pictures of Barak sucking on a pacifier, wearing star-eyed sunglasses and a diaper made of tinfoil? If those surfaced, he'd finally earn my vote.

Tim Faulkner

lever2k

radcap

"...are people who want to orgranize society on a individualistic cultural level which is in clear opposition to how societies, cultures, and cultural attributes are formed."

I can't speak for anyone else, but I will say I have NO desire to "organize society" in any way, shape, or form. I simply seek to let individuals freely choose their ideas and their actions - and to freely associate and interact based on those choices.

If you believe that particular ideas are necessarily accepted because of one's skin color, just say so. But do not get upset when people point out that is racism.

""To claim there is a 'black community' or a 'white community' IS racist. "

So you deny reality?"

I certainly deny what appears to be YOUR understanding of reality. There is no "community" - no set of ideas which people are 'organized' around - to which a person automatically belongs simply because of the color of his skin. There is no "community" (no culture, no set of traditions, etc) to which a person belongs simply because his skin is a particular color, or his eyes are a particular color, or his hair is a particular color, etc etc etc.

All men have a choice in the ideas they accept and reject. Their skin, their eyes, their hair, their toes, their teeth, their genes, and the rest of their physical makeup do not prevent them from accepting or rejecting ANY idea.

Put simply, I do not belong to a "community" of people simply because my skin is the same color as that of other individuals. And my friends do not belong to different "communities" of people simply because their skin color matches that of other individuals. We accept or reject our ideas based on our own individual rational judgments. If other people CHOOSE to forego such reasoning and accept or reject ideas on the basis of things OTHER than their own judgment - if they choose to accept ideas because of the color of the skin of those advancing and practicing those ideas - then that is their problem - and YES their racism.

One can try to justify the substitution mindless collectivism for individual reasoning all one wants. But such rationalizations won't change the racist nature of this substitution.

radcap

Dolly-At-School

lever2k

There is no evidence whatsoever that 'Asians' are 'naturally' better students, or that 'Blacks' are 'naturally' better athletes. There is also no evidence whatsoever of genetic determination of psychology.

People of certain ethnic backgrounds are subject to higher statistical probablilities of certain medical conditions, but that does not make them any special category of people.

It's funny that you think the Chinese and Vietnamese are one 'race', as I expect a Chinese person wouldn't agree. Many 'Caucasians' have lots of 'Asian' ancestors, too.

If there were ever large numbers of 'ethnically pure' people in the world (I doubt it), that time is over.

By using false terms like 'race', we make them real - the more we use them, the more real they get. I will not participate in such a travesty.

@1369ic:
"As for this general thread, denying racism or the existence of racial differences is not a viable option unless you can get everybody to do it."

That happens one person at a time.
-Kle.

Klebert L. Hall

Pham Nuwen

People are sheep.

"Oh look, there someone who might be a shepherd, let's all follow him and see what he does."

Again I lol.

People will get along with each other when they want to. No one can talk someone out of the way they feel. You can intimidate them to listen while you have power over them, but don't lose that power or turn your back on them.

You can brainwash, uh, I mean educate people to behave in a different manner, but then what manner do you choose? If you choose a manner that is different than what that individual 'would' have normally been indoctrinated in, then you are the racist or bigot or intolerant. If you allow them to progress normally and have their own ideas, then you run the risk they won't think like you or even like you, but then you are tolerant, not bigoted, not racist.

There are a least 2 sides to every story. People will do what they want to do.

Blend or don't, just stop whining about what is basically your own choice.

Yes, I am 'caucasian' whatever that means. Under the One Drop Rule though I am Shawnee Indian (1/4th). I was born as under-privileged in this country as a person can be. Grew up in the mountains, been called Red-Neck, Hill Billy, Hick, White Trash, etc, and I got my first pair of shoes at 5 years old. My clothes came from Goodwill until I moved out of the house. But I didn't let that start condemn me.

You become what you are willing to try to be.

Sorry for the rant...

Freebadeebadingdong

I'm just glad IO9 mentions Black writers because the only author I've read is Walter Mosley. I've added about 12 books to my reading list thx to this site.

Final

Asians are better students because Confucian tradition put a lot of emphasis on education. Studies have shown that within three generations Asians don't do any better than other Americans. In Korea, where I've served three times, parents are lamenting the fact that their kids aren't the students they were. And they're not. The culture has changed on them.

As for this general thread, denying racism or the existence of racial differences is not a viable option unless you can get everybody to do it. If you can't, you're better off naming it, defining it and understanding it. Ignoring it just leaves the racists free to use a club you have blinded yourself to.

1369ic

What's more, I think that the recent political discussions of race that we've all been hearing so much about are related to alienation (and the totally made-up anthropological term "otherness") in ways that pop culture has constructed since, well, forever. I don't think Obama can convincingly pull off a Mr. Wiggles-style platform, but Afrofuturism extends far beyond aliens and even technology. What really impressed me about his speech was that he used both the African-American experience and the vision of the future to conceive not just of what it means to be black, but of what it means to be American.

Dolly-At-School

So you have to wonder if, while striving for expression and acceptance and, not coincidentally, money, they didn't take the avenues that were open to them. A musical superhero from a wonderful future would be a good melding of the longing for a better future and one of their "favored" forms of expression, whereas they probably wouldn't get far trying the whole black master of the universe thing.

Then you've got to wonder, which came first? Were blacks economically or culturally "encouraged" to channel their creativity more into music, and afro-futurism was one of the ways it expressed itself, or was there a need to express afro-futurism and it ended becoming popular through music because that was the venue open to popular expressions of such ideas? Or just the one that left persistent evidence (as opposed to underground comics that went through a couple dozen hands and didn't survive the author's teenage years)?

It would have been cool (by today's twisted cartoon standards) to have mixed the black rage idea with the black musical futurism and had kind of a black El Kabong bonking racists over the head with his guitar. Not to make light of the situation, but the image popped into my head and was irresistible. I've known a couple of black guys in my time who would have volunteered for the job with gusto.

1369ic

Nope. Race is a genetic definition, not a phenological one.

"Man is not born with innate ideas."

But Man is born with a psyche controlled by his instincts. Do you deny that the geographic separation of humans that goes back as far as 50,000+ years ago and the different environmental pressures that different groups faced could have resulted in the selection of different psychological (as well as physical) traits? If so, why?

"There are no ideas which a man must accept because his skin is white, or black, or red, or brown, or blue, or purple or green."

If your skin is purple or green, you probably need to see a doctor :D

"This means 'culture', 'tradition', 'history', 'religion', etc. are individual choices, not biological imperatives. "

Actually, all of the things you mention were developed far apart from mere individuals but were developed by groups of people acting collectively. Race deniers are people who want to orgranize society on a individualistic cultural level which is in clear opposition to how societies, cultures, and cultural attributes are formed.

"To claim that certain ideas - whatever they might be - are black or white IS racist."

So you mean when black people, as a community, create their own cultural values that are distinct from whites or asians, thats racist and evil?

"To claim there is a 'black community' or a 'white community' IS racist. "

So you deny reality?

"Such claims lump individuals together solely on the basis of skin color."

You mean on the basis of common geographical ancestry.

"To ask people to "deny" such crude biological collectivism is NOT 'offensive'. What is offensive is treating such racism as perfectly 'acceptable'. "

Biological collectivism is crude. However, collectivism on the basis of traditions and cultural homgenity, is not.

RIP MRHANDS

Its a hiearchical category. People of several different ethnic groups can fit under a broad racial definition. Chinese and Vietnamese people are of the same race but of different ethnic groups. They are more closely related to each other than they are to Caucasians.

Culture is the set of traditions that are socially transmitted among groups of interacting people.

"The way I see it, people are all pretty dang similar - we can all have kids together, and if aliens landed tomorrow, I expect we'd 'all look alike to them'. There aren't even any two different populations of human that vary as much as Bassets do from Beagles - I would tend to think there aren't even 'breeds' of human, much less 'races'."

On what basis do you deny differences between human population groups but acknowledge the differences between breeds of animals? How do you reconcile the fact that blacks are generally better athletes and that Asians are generally better students?

"I would also say that people within a 'race' vary as much as they do from people of a different 'race'. Is a person from Trenton likely to have more in common with another resident of Trenton of a different 'race' or are they likely to have more in common with a person of the same 'race', from India?"

You are mixing up culture with race and ethnic identity. One can accurately describe what makes an Irish, English, Russian, Chinese, or even just a "White", "Black", and "Asian", and pick out the differences from people who are in geographical diaspora.

"Besides, isn't it sufficient to think "I'm interesting and unique because of my personality, and my achievements, and the way I treat others", instead of "I'm interesting and unique because I was born to descendants of ethno-cultural group A"."

That is your choice, but my interpretation of societies and civilizations of past is that groups who maintain and protect their general racial identities generally do better than ones that do not. The destruction of ethnically homogenous socities results in cultural chaos/conflict that degenerates the common cultural institutions and traditions.

If you notice, we're a society of individualists who organize around money, whereas in times past, socities were more about standing for some collective cultural aspirations.

"I'd rather be judged by my actions than my appearance."

This is where I will agree with you. Many racists will say "White=Good, Black=Evil" even though there are plenty of despicable whites and many talented blacks.

RIP MRHANDS

That is the very definition of racism.

To ask people to "deny" such crude biological collectivism is NOT 'offensive'. What is offensive is treating such racism as perfectly 'acceptable'.

radcap

RIP MRHANDS

Just because you do not like racist people does not make the reality of racial differences go away.

RIP MRHANDS

Okay. To me, 'race' seems to be an arbitrary category invented by people who want to pretend they are superior to another large demographic of people. My guess is that your experience of the existance of 'race' in the deep south is in a similar vein. What is the advantage in acknowledging this ?

It seems to me that it just helps to perpetuate all of the problems.

I agree that people will always find excuses to mistreat each other, but why help it along by using terminology invented by bigots for the purpose of persecution?

@theysaidwhat:
"We're not all the same, and why the heck would anyone want us to be? We all have rich and varied histories, cultural and religious traditions, etc."

How is that different from ethnic/cultural background? What makes something 'race'?

The way I see it, people are all pretty dang similar - we can all have kids together, and if aliens landed tomorrow, I expect we'd 'all look alike to them'. There aren't even any two different populations of human that vary as much as Bassets do from Beagles - I would tend to think there aren't even 'breeds' of human, much less 'races'.

I would also say that people within a 'race' vary as much as they do from people of a different 'race'. Is a person from Trenton likely to have more in common with another resident of Trenton of a different 'race' or are they likely to have more in common with a person of the same 'race', from India?

Besides, isn't it sufficient to think "I'm interesting and unique because of my personality, and my achievements, and the way I treat others", instead of "I'm interesting and unique because I was born to descendants of ethno-cultural group A".

I'd rather be judged by my actions than my appearance.

I'm not trying to offend anyone (I seem adept at that w/o trying). I just fail to see anything positive to be gained by perpetuating a belief that divides and alienates people.
-Kle.

Klebert L. Hall

There will never be another...

Pham Nuwen

Here's the problem with denying 'race': denying race carries with it an underlying assumption that we have to all pretend to be the same. We're not all the same, and why the heck would anyone want us to be? We all have rich and varied histories, cultural and religious traditions, etc. Those histories and traditions are part of what make everyone interesting and valuable. If you really want to live as a person who is not a racist, yes, there is a place for focusing on the many, many things we all hold in common. But to really pull it off, you can't ask anyone to deny themselves, their history and their culture. If you ask people to do that you are offending them and not truly accepting them. Can you see that?

theysaidwhat

When you learn to dance
You won't forget it
Ooh, if you learn to dance
You won't forget it

Orphan boy experiences hardship and alienation on Earth. Is abducted by aliens, comes to think of them as his adopted parents. Aliens give boy brain implant instructing him to teach the world to dance. Boy returns to Earth, teaches white guys how to dance, everyone gets funky. Interbreeding (including alien) results and universal peace ensues. A better plot than Hancock and a better musical than Joss Whedon could ever imagine. Anyone want to start on a script?

Tim Faulkner

greatslack

As a black man who has lived in the deep south, trust me, there is such a thing as race. Mind you even the worst experiences I have had don't hold a candle to what my father experienced, and what he put up with was better than his father, and so on.

I think the younger generations, especially in ethnically diverse areas are slowly moving to more of a cultural bias than a racial one. What music you listen too, how you dress, and the slang you sling give you a cultural tribe, as much as your race/religion/color. Now they judge, ostracize, belittle, and attack (verbally or physically) people that are culturally different, rather than just on race or religion. That's the human way.

As for the original question sent in, drugs. The answer is often drugs. Drugs, especially hallucinogens, tend to give people a sense of connection to the universe, and often a feeling of transcendence beyond the human world. So alien worlds, dimensional portals, time travel, etc tend to pop up. Or maybe it's just the people I know, books I read, and music I listen too that makes me think that.

Chris Meredith

Plus the speech was pretty good. I'll vote for him.

Log1c

Pham Nuwen

Soul is hamhawks in my cornflakes

Pham Nuwen

Tim Faulkner

Tones

I'm down with that.

psaurian

And, of course, much has been made of the space mythology of the Dogons of Mali and a few other African tribes.

I think the connection is two-fold. The first is mostly superficial, forming source material and context for a rich musical and artistic tradition. It's great imagery evocative of otherness, imparts mystery and depth to their creations. I'm sure Miss Hayde is already buried under the Sun Ra, P-Funk discography and hundreds of other jazz, blues, funk, and rap albums. But if she needs source material...

The other, more profound, aspect stems from their alienation and/or desire to find something to connect with -- it's not here so it must be out there, in space. In which case, I don't think Obama wants to appeal to afrospace which harkens to alienation and separation.

Tim Faulkner

I believe there's an essay in Derrick Bell's Faces at the Bottom of the Well: The Permanence of Racism about how America would respond if aliens came along and offered to trade a lot of advanced technology and stuff in return for the African-American population.

Rasselas

Charlie Jane Anders

At least he disavowed the guy who thinks Mr. Farakhan is just swell.

As for Afrofuturism, I'm not sure Mr. Obama's speech was either particularly 'Afro' or particularly futuristic. The idea of the US as an ethnic melting pot goes way back.
-Kle.

Klebert L. Hall

Plague