i love these conversations, because i've been neutered. BY SCIENCE.

also, why the hell am i following up to a post 4 days after everyone else? (the answer involves boredom and booze)

regis

electabletaupe

Plague

That being said, I hope everything goes well and that all that previous hormone stuff doesn't prove to have unseen consequences.

Stafford

Annalee Newitz

I think everyone is agreeing that nobody can change their sex and that anyone can change their gender.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what's going on, but if this is so, why are we all still arguing?

jeers16

electabletaupe

My point is simply this: a transgendered woman is pregnant. Not a man.
Spin it all you want, but that is what it is.

I'm not making any judgment calls, nor a mention of what people "are": their "souls" or "being", etc. Yes, they may be a "man" inside of a "woman" body- but that's not what the core article is about. (Annalee's sly sexual politics aside)

As I said, you can change genders. But we do not have the capability (yet) of changing someone's chromosomal sex into the other. You can modify the exterior and some of the interior all you want. But making the claim you have changed your "true" DNA self is preposterous.

And don't take the "true" out of context to make it fit what you want.

And what ComicDork said at the end of his last post is my point put in other words.

Plague

bluewyvern

What I did say, in so many words, is the that just changing the exterior is not really a solution either. Some things don't have solutions. Sorry, that is just the way life is: messy & imperfect.

But I never said or implied that therapy was the solution.

All I want is for folks to get the words right. To be exact and to be able to talk about things like scientists. This person is not and never was male. EVER. Isn't now: they're female. Always have been and always will be.

ComicDork

Annalee Newitz

That's how I see the whole transgender thing. People want to change their sexes/genders/whatevers, and now science allows them to do it. Sure, a transsexual guy doesn't have XY chromosomes. But that's because he's different from a natural-made man: he's a guy who can have babies. Kind of like the airplane being different from the bird, but still flying.

I honestly think 100 years from now people will look back at all of us monogendered people and ask, "How did they do that? So restrictive!" The same way we wonder how people traveled without planes.

Annalee Newitz

And now I've compounded the problem with a double-post.

(But at least I feel better.)

92BuickLeSabre

Just because you disagree with the connotative definition of the word "Man" I mean, no need to attack. Especially because I know you know that language changes as does our understanding of gender, sex, and sexuality. And that is actually great and not just self-spiraling and a circle jerk.

As with anything physical. Sex isn't some perfect, onesizefitsall notion either. There are folks with XXY, XXYY, XYY chromosomes. There are folks that are hermaphroditic. There are folks who were hermaphroditic who were "assigned" sexes at birth and sometimes the doctors got it wrong. There are folks with widely varying hormonal levels of "male" hormones and "female" hormones. And of course, there are people who have all the "physical" signs of a sex, but "internally" they know they are the other.

And guess what? We know that neurology and biology aren't as separate as we once believed. Who is to say that a mental/internal/neurological/personal identification with a gender isn't just as real as a physical one. Certainly people with much more knowledge and experience than I have think it is.

And to bring race into it even makes the point more clear. We used to "define" race, break it down. Octaroon, quatroon. Black = "one drop." Half-breeds, mixed breeds for Native Americans. We know that different individuals carry different genetic markers, but they are so much more complex than even our current descriptors of race. The idea of being "white" or "black" is as much of a social construct as any other label you could come up with. A very real construct with massive implications, but a socially constructed label nonetheless.

Names, labels: They are merely categories we assign to describe and make sense of the world. There is nothing inherently real about the word "Man" even more than there is about a real racial categorization of "White" or "Black."

Sure, it would be more precise and surprising if a person who was born to the biological sex of Male as we most commonly understand it turned out to be pregnant.

But the fact that someone who went through hormonal FTM procedures is pregnant is still pretty excellent, and it should allow us to broaden our understandings of Man, Woman, Gender & Sex even further and to explore our own language limitations, as well as the power (and sure, limitations) of self-identification.

Hell, try to imagine it internally. You are born into a woman's body but your entire life you know you are a man. And then you finally take the steps to appear to the world as who you know yourself to be. And then, because you are with someone, and you really want children you choose to become pregnant - the most female gendered thing a person can do! Can you imagine the potential mental difficulty? The crazy mindfuck that could be? The effect on one's own understanding of self and identity? It's brilliant in its humanity. It's something to be explored and even celebrated.

But you all already knew all that. So why the hate?

92BuickLeSabre

pinafore

Plague

A man is a person with a masculine gender identity. I hope that helps things. If you have an alternative definition for "man", I'd love to hear it. If a man is someone who has XY chromosomes, then I'd like to know the answers to the following questions:

(a) How many men are in your circle of acquaintances?
(b) How many people are in your circle of acquaintances for whom you've seen chromosome test results that say "XY"?

If your answer to (a) is different from your answer to (b) I'd suggest you reconsider your definition of "man".

electabletaupe

Answer your question?

I'm sure the answer is "no".

Plague

Plague

electabletaupe

electabletaupe

Cacafuego

I'm just waiting for people to start shelling out the bucks to have themselves surgically altered into the Klingon or Vulcan they known in their hearts-of-hearts they were meant to be since they were little kids.

Cacafuego

Cacafuego

Cacafuego

electabletaupe

What about a guy(who was born a guy) with a baby in him?
[www.leemingwei.com]

MickyK

Were I a giraffe, I'd have a lot easier time reaching the stuff on the high shelf at Safeway.

electabletaupe

For the record, were I to be transgender I would find this person's actions offensive and a slap in the face to any attempts I had made a being respected and legitimized as a seperate gender.

I gotta go get my milk.

Garrison Dean, King Awesome

electabletaupe

I guess I hit one of your hot buttons. While you have a cup of warm milk and try to calm down a bit, the rest of us, in the meantime, can live in a world where we distinguish between sex and gender; such a concept is useful from an explanatory point of view.

electabletaupe

As for the car thing.. I didn't realize you had to be an expert to have a kid. That must make Britney Spears a gol dern genius.

Garrison Dean, King Awesome

However, our societies have assigned largely artificial roles to humans of one assigned gender or the other. That's what complicates this issue - the crossing of artificial, and often irrelevant, societal norms. I choose not to call a individual his or her desired or even proper biological gender until medicine can actually make it so. That realm is unfortunately still science fiction.

sensenet

I'm actually impressed that past male hormone treatment doesn't seem to have made conception difficult. This suggests that a typical male taking hormone treatment could possibly also be successfully impregnated.

femto

MercuryPDX

Your analogy about cars would be more relevant if opening the hood of a car required you to be an expert on cars and take very special precautions to make sure you didn't turn the car into a useless pile of steel in the process.

electabletaupe

I will try however. We find it stranger if a man sans uterus gives birth because that man was born without the biological equipment that is specifically dedicated to carrying a child. It would be like a car with no engine winning the Indy 500. This "man" was born with a uterus hence we are unimpressed.

Garrison Dean, King Awesome

As a broader question, posed to all the commenters: Why is the idea of a man with a uterus giving birth so much less viscerally strange than the idea of any other man giving birth? I have known many people who gave birth, but I have never seen any of their uteruses. Is the idea of a man giving birth jarring because we don't expect a man to have a uterus (but in what sense do we expect a woman to have a uterus? We don't interact with uteruses in a very direct way except for our own, if we have one), or because giving birth conflicts with the expected social role for men?

electabletaupe

When I first saw this story elsewhere, I thought it said an MTF person was having a baby and I was all "NO WAY! That's impossible!" Till of course I RTFA and saw there was an original-equipment uterus still involved. Such a disappointment. :)

Evil Tortie's Mom

Mecharine

We don't understand the exact nature of the biological process that causes people with female bodies to develop male gender identities, or vice versa, but it's easier here to change the hardware than the software.

electabletaupe

Folks that feel the need to radically alter their body have issues, and I am in no way shape or form belittling those issues - they are very real - I just wonder if massive re-structuring that is only held together by drugs is the best solution.

Take them off the drugs and the whole thing falls apart: the only testosterone in their system is the little all women have + whatever they're ingesting to mimic masculine features. Same for Dudes that think they're women.

And, no: they're not 'men'... they're women & men who have outwardly transformed themselves but they haven't actually changed gender anymore than I become a cop just because I put on a uniform or become a Doctor because I put on scrubs. I hate to be the bad guy here, but you can't change sex. Sorry.

People are born imperfectly. People have problems that may not have a physical solution. Years of working with the disabled taught me that.

ComicDork

electabletaupe

Garrison Dean, King Awesome

electabletaupe

92BuickLeSabre

Garrison Dean, King Awesome

92BuickLeSabre

sensenet

Plus if I have learned anything from Sci-Fi dopplegangers its that one of us would have to go. I would be the real Angela Davis before long.

Garrison Dean, King Awesome

Annalee Newitz

Garrison Dean, King Awesome

Annalee Newitz

The dude is a man. Most scientists and medical doctors would agree. He's got a beard; he has testosterone in his body; he's legally male; he's married to a woman.

You wouldn't call a dude with manboobs a woman, would you, even though he has boobs? So why would you call a dude with a uterus a woman? Makes no sense.

Annalee Newitz

Apparently, Oregon does recognize Thomas Beatie as male. So from purely a legal standpoint, this is the first case of a man being pregnant. I agree, that part is really interesting.

extracrispy

Annalee Newitz

92BuickLeSabre

Garrison Dean, King Awesome

Garrison Dean, King Awesome

92BuickLeSabre

The issue arises in being impressed that a woman gave birth. Its like Baryshnikov competing on Dancing with The Stars. I could go sit in a wheelchair for years and live the life of a paraplegic. That doesn't mean you should be impressed when I stand up and walk around.

His gender role may be that of a man, but biologically, still a woman. Not to mention how dangerous it is to not have your ovaries removed if you're on tetstosterone

Garrison Dean, King Awesome

eedlebeedle

electabletaupe

That seems like a pretty strong stance to take about a person you've never even met or talked with.

So, then, I'm genuinely curious: On what empirical evidence do you base your position about Beattie's internal gender identity? Also, when you meet a new person, do you insist on seeing their genitals or on the results of a chromosome test before you call them by the set of gendered pronouns you prefer? If not, why not?

electabletaupe

What you have is a woman who cosmetically altered her body to appear as though she is a man and now she's reproducing. And what is the definition of female? The one that carries the eggs.

I wish folks would get this right.

ComicDork

And FYI: Matt Rice's son is now 8 or 9 years old. And is autistic.

extracrispy

Garrison Dean, King Awesome

Annalee Newitz

Annalee Newitz

jomc

Oh fuck it this'll be like screaming at a wall.

Sure people born with uteruses who grew up with vaginas and later give birth are men.

Garrison Dean, King Awesome

bodmodkub

Annalee Newitz

as for 1940, annalee, wasn't that back when there were still the rules about how women had to wear some minimum number of articles of "women's clothing" and men wearing men's clothing or something? or did that come in the 50's with all those hot eisenhower butch girls with that beebo brinker styling?

man, now i have to go reread my ann bannon book collection.

regis

choinski

jomc

Though I think that I read somewhere that there's a species of lobster that has five sexes, so once again, when it comes to weird, fiction just can't beat reality.

Gyrus

Plague

Annalee Newitz

jomc

Garrison Dean, King Awesome

I'd be impressed if the guy didn't know he had lady bits. A hermaphroditic baby operated on at birth to have only one external set of genitalia. Now he is pregnant.

Today, on Montel/Springer/Geraldo.

See? Wouldn't that be more interesting?

Ghede

Plague

MaxTwice

HeyThereKiller

MaxTwice