The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It - io9 Comments

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

braak — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 10:59:21 PDT

@JennaW: @moff: @Plague: Hooray! The internet has made friends of us all!

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

Plague — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 10:34:51 PDT

@JennaW:
Anybody who judges a movie by one scene (or if that scene is missing) is, to put it politely, a maroon.

And yes, I am looking rather fetching today.

Moff, don't be jealous.

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

moff — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 10:23:32 PDT

@Plague & JennaW: Kiss! Kiss!

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 10:11:06 PDT

@Plague: True, you did. But it isn't an either/or choice. There are so many reasons why it may be cut or kept in. In the end, as long as the final cut of the *movie* is good, I don't care what they cut or kept in. Why would anyone?

"I- I thought that film was great until I found out about that 5-second scene they cut. Now I can't even look at a movie screen anymore." *sobs*

And by those standards? My condescension belongs on cuteoverload.com.

But take note: I'm judging your umbrage by the same standards.

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

Plague — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:59:45 PDT

@JennaW:

I stated in my first comment that if the scene was removed because it stank, then that was a different issue.

If they remove it JUST because it might affect some audience members, then yes, that is a "sell out".

And the adorableness of your condescension depends entirely on what you are wearing.

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:37:58 PDT

@Plague:

The assumption behind most of the comments on this subject seems to be that this scene *gestures toward pedestal* is the Bestest Scene EVAR! and if the filmmakers choose to delete it now, they are SELLOUTS!

Why is this the thesis? Maybe they've been on the fence about using it and the audience reaction confirmed their own uncertainty? Or maybe now they'll be galvanized to keep it because, YES! that kind of near-disgust is just what they were going for.

We've made up this entire story about this one scene in our collective heads and are now standing on various bits of ground fighting for our stances. This is why the conversation is silly.

Your condescension.
Not cute.

Oh, yes it is! It's fucking ADORABLE.

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

Plague — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:30:40 PDT

@JennaW:
Yeah, a lot of people make a movie. Who wudda thunk it!
Doesn't matter. What the end result is still formed by one or a few folk's' "vision", made by committee or not.

Do you blame the entire crew for a movie like "House Of The Dead"? No, you blame Uwe Boll.

Have I ever uttered that phrase? Sure as hell I have. But then again, I'm also guilty of what I just said- I brought something TO the film before watching it. Which is again my own fault. NOT the filmmakers.

I personally thank whatever I believe that there are plenty of filmmakers throughout history and now that have the strength of purpose to make what they want without considering what a fictional "test audience" might think of it. Sure, they majority aren't blockbusters and aren't made by big studios, but some are.

Your condescension.
Not cute.

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

moff — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:22:43 PDT

@pink_clerical_collar: This is all your fault.

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

braak — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:20:45 PDT

@JennaW: @moff: That's it! I'm stabbing everybody!

EXPLOOOOOOSION!

(also, I am apparently exploding)

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

moff — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:19:41 PDT

@Ed Grabianowski: MY MIND CAN'T TAKE THIS.

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:17:04 PDT

@Tim Faulkner: I see what you did there... I see how you're being all flaunty with your advance knowledge 'n' shit.

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

Ed Grabianowski — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:16:15 PDT

Here's what I find myself wondering: What if, as originally shot, the Joker died in the movie? In fact, what if he died of a drug overdose? How would that have been handled?

Ed Grabianowski

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

moff — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:15:08 PDT

@braak: Not bad, but I'm still not putting you on the next season of Veheming With the Stars.

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:15:01 PDT

@braak: ARE YOU SAYING I'M NOT CAPABLE OF STABBING A BITCH?!

Oh, yeah... it's *on.*

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:13:06 PDT

@Plague: Yeah... that's not actually how creating works. Writing, painting, film-making -- not some unbroken line from vision to final work. Lots of editing, course-changing, etc., done in the interim. The final result has a lot of contributing factors even with a novel which is a single-creator work.

Your idealism.
It's cute.

A film is a self-enclosed entity. Whatever someone brings to it, or takes from it is their own issue.

And that is bullshit. If this were true, this blog would vanish. Where would io9 be without fan hatred of many, many things in advance based on how those things don't seem to fit what fans think they should be?

Now -- should people try not to bring their preconceived notions into the theater? YES! Is that reality? NO! If I want my *collaborative* project to succeed on its content and not some hyped-up controversy, do I take that into consideration? Yes.

Also, if you have ever *in your life* uttered the phrase, "It didn't live up to the hype," then you should probably post a retraction of your above post. ;)

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

braak — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:11:47 PDT

@moff: @JennaW: Also, for the record, "flip out" as a personal idiosyncratic use that you had no way of knowing about--I and my friends usually use it to refer to non-serious arguments, and, often, to people who are clearly not flipping out.

I do want to say that I specifically did not mean that I thought you were going to stab somebody, or something.

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

Tim Faulkner — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:09:35 PDT

@JennaW: The problem is the scene is crucial (if it's coming from the sequence I think it is).

Tim Faulkner

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

braak — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:09:33 PDT

@moff: What are you saying, exactly? Are you saying that I'm not vehement enough? God, can't you just relax for a god-damn MINUTE?

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

moff — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:08:23 PDT

@JennaW: Moreover, I always tread lightly around close personal friends of Mr. T.

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

moff — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:07:26 PDT

@JennaW: I dunno, dude. In all fairness, the exchange seemed pretty low-key until you said it was silly. I'll grant that "flip out" might be a little strong, but I don't think she meant you were literally throwing a tantrum, and your comments were reading to me as slightly more vehement than braak's. Not that there's anything wrong with that -- I'm just pointing out that the misreading of tone can go both ways.

Of course, I might be misreading everything myself.

Yep, just blew my own mind.

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

braak — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:00:00 PDT

@JennaW: Hm. Well, sorry to have ruined your fun. I genuinely misunderstood your intentions.

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

Plague — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 08:55:23 PDT

@JennaW:
Your way of thinking.
I'm against it.

A creators work shouldn't be undone or redone because of how someone may perceive it.

A film is a self-enclosed entity. Whatever someone brings to it, or takes from it is their own issue.

If the scene sucks, that's a whole other matter.

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 08:43:06 PDT

@braak: I was kidding around before (please note "silly conversation" and overdramatic "THE BASTARDS"), but now I'm kind of pissed off.

Do not tell me I'm flipping out. You started taking the devil's advocate stance on this with me -- is that *you* flipping out? I wouldn't have said so. I thought that you were stating your case, and I was stating mine.

Also, you were not the person to whom I initially addressed the remark, and in my more general statements, I wasn't talking about you. I was talking in general about the fannish tendency to overreact to nothing in advance of any actual context.

But game over. Anytime someone decides to play the "semantic break-down" card, the fun is just *sucked* right out of the whole exercise. 'Cause you know what? It IS what I said not how I said it, and talking about how things are said is the #1 biggest waste of time on the internet.

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

pink_clerical_collar — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 08:33:08 PDT

Cow and Chicken.

Man, that was one warped series. I'm still scarred.

pink_clerical_collar

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

braak — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 08:28:50 PDT

@JennaW: I think there's not a reason to flip out about this. I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was just pointing out that, yes, while some scenes are deleted for good reasons, some scenes are deleted for bad reasons. I think "all kinds of reasons" is the key phrase here.

And what are you talking about "up in arms"? Commenting on the internet is the exact opposite of being up in arms.

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

andrew60647 — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 08:27:52 PDT

@Gospel X: >Come to think of it, I really want the Joker to tell Batman he wishes he could quit him. That would be awesome.

That totally reminds me of the panel in Dark Knight Returns where Joker is at the county fair, and he sees Batman coming for him and whispers to himself, "Oh, darling."

andrew60647

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

Hart — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 08:27:44 PDT

@GodofMonkeys: No, they can't even use the writers' strike as an excuse. Remember "Volume 2" was going to be the first half of season two regardless and then Volume 3 would start in the second half of Season 2. So Volume 2 (which became, in effect, Season 2) was written and produced prior to the strike and sucked so bodaciously hard on its own, without any assistance from the strike.

Hart

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 08:23:34 PDT

@braak: Film is a collaborative medium where the creators make calls like this all the time for all kinds of reasons.

I bet they've left out all kinds of cool scenes already that Heath sweated over and poured his heart into -- for pacing, tone, and running-time reasons... THE BASTARDS!

But, sure. Everyone get all up in arms about their decision (whatever it may be) as if we know what they're thinking. What do the people who actually knew Heath Ledger and who observed the test audiences and who made the superlative first film know, anyway? We're a bunch of people reading about it third hand on a blog -- how can they be SO LAME?

This is a very silly conversation. I'm going to delete this whole scene from my life's final cut.

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

Discrete-Daniel — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 08:18:04 PDT

@braak: Mighty Max! Now that was an awesome and underappreciated cartoon. IO9 should do an article on how seriously warped it was for a cartoon based on a line of children's toys. The amount of implied violence and horror was staggering.

I remember one episode that begin with a couple of lumberjacks getting chainsawed to death by an ancient norse demon off-camera. I also remember another episode where some unlucky people were fed to a fire-breating statue by a bunch of druids, and an episode that featured a ring which possessed a person's hand an compelled them to stick it in a certain alter where the possessed hand was chopped off so it could join an entire army of possessed hands.

Plus it had Richard Moll!

Discrete-Daniel

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

MonkeyT — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 08:13:01 PDT

@andrew60647: "You complete me" is also from Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me. Which guarantees that I'll crack up if the line appears, no matter what the filmmakers want from the scene.

MonkeyT

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

GodofMonkeys — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 08:06:48 PDT

I have to admit that while I loved most of season one of "Heroes" they really started to lose me after that crappy finale. Season two was just insult upon injury.

I guess it's possible that the writer's strike MIGHT have had something to do with the utter crap they gave us in season two.

Maybe season three will be better.

And maybe it will take suckage to an epic level. *sigh*

GodofMonkeys

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

Hart — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 08:03:49 PDT

The scene should stay in. It would be lame to remove it because of the perceived reactions from test audiences. This variation of political correctness is partially one of the biggest problems we have with Hollywood these days (and our larger culture, in general): giving in to the threat of trespassing against everyone's delicate sensibilities.

Yes, there's something to be said about not being removed from the "reality" of the film. But hey, guess what? Heath Ledger is in this movie, but he died before its release. Some people are going to think about that during the movie. Imagine!

If the character he's playing is shown in a body bag, some people aren't going to even think about it, others will for sure and when they do, life will go on, the movie will make a bazillion dollars. The idea that a movie is ruined if you think about an actor as a person and not the character is patently absurd. If this was true, there would be no celebrity actors. Every role would need to be played by an actor we'd never seen before. Obviosuly, the inverse of this is the case - we thrive on celebrity.

People need to stop worrying so much about how badly everything is hurting everybody's mental health. We're all gonna be OK.

Hart

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

braak — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 07:59:49 PDT

@JennaW: My point is that the test audience isn't necessarily representative.

Also, that the need to remove the scene because it's "too soon" after a tragedy is itself already an abbrogation of the art for the sake of the industry which, by some people's standards, is lame.

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

Metropolis — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 07:55:52 PDT

@foolish-rain: Im going to have to see your Fosters and raise you The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy. Now thats a warped show. Ill add that in the line of shows for children but not really which include, but not limited too: Courage the Cowardly Dog and Invader Zim.

Metropolis

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

Metropolis — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 07:52:47 PDT

God, people are way to sensitive. So hes a in body bag. Oh noes! It's making think about death. Hes dead. Deal with it peoeple. If it has a place in the movie it should be left in.

Metropolis

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

foolish-rain — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 07:48:24 PDT

@tetracycloide: Oooh Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends. Now there's a great show!

foolish-rain

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 07:40:48 PDT

@Gospel X: Yes, because why have a good movie with strong internal logic when we could just have a series of cool scenes and in-jokes? ;)

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

Gospel X — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 07:37:55 PDT

@andrew60647: Come to think of it, I really want the Joker to tell Batman he wishes he could quit him. That would be awesome.

Gospel X

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

parvax — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 07:37:39 PDT

Is anyone actually interested in Kate's love life on Lost?

parvax

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

PVIII — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 07:30:57 PDT

Sadly, if X-files 2 consisted of Mulder and Scully sitting around a room, discussing politics, I would probably still be happy.

PVIII

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

steven522 — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 07:20:36 PDT

@Belabras: Hi. I'm Steven522 and I watch cartoons. At first, my excuse was "Hey, I'm young and single, why not." And then my excuse was, "I watch them with my kid." And now that my child is reaching the age where she likes live action shows like Hannah Montana and Suite Life, it gets more difficult to sneak in viewings of Fosters, Phineas and Ferb, and Valley of the Dinosaurs.
I realize now that I have a problem, and my family is helping me through it by giving me a 30 minute once-a-week support session on Saturday mornings while Spectacular Spider-Man is on.
Thank you.

steven522

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 07:19:02 PDT

@braak: That's fine, but if the majority of an audience is yanked out of a film's reality by the leaving-in of a scene that reminds them too strongly of a real-life incident which has nothing to do with the plot, character, etc., then it should be removed.

A scene that is cool in and of itself is not cool if it ruins the film experience for the majority of the filmgoers. It sounds as if this scene -- as cool as it may be -- would do that.

And this incident has nothing to do with preview audiences being right or wrong -- this isn't a happying-up the ending situation -- a visceral reaction is a visceral reaction. Films seek to control, guide, and finesse the audience.

If they can sort out a way to use that reaction without undermining the film they're trying to make, then more power to them.

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

extracrispy — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 07:15:21 PDT

It would be really interesting if there was a Brokeback Mountain throwback in The Dark Knight. There's a long and twisted history of references to Joker possibly being gay or bisexual in the comics although I don't believe it's ever spelled out definitively. Rumor has it that Grant Morrison was asked to edit some sexuality out of his graphic novel Arkham Asylum because it was being published around the same time the Michael Keaton Batman movie was coming out.

extracrispy

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

Angryrider — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 07:11:19 PDT

WTF is a Medusa Cascade?
Ooh if the finale's extra long, I hope it'll be 90 min, like a movie.

Angryrider

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

tetracycloide — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 07:07:13 PDT

@foolish-rain: there's always powerpuff girls and fosters

tetracycloide

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

Belabras — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 07:03:23 PDT

@foolish-rain:
I... I have a confession. I watch it willingly. I know the plots are oversimplified and the writing is at best standard kid fair, but the art is really quite good...

I'm going to go hide now.

Belabras

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

andrew60647 — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 07:01:20 PDT

"You complete me" is Jerry McGuire, and more apropos for the Joker/Batman relationship. "I wish I could quit you" is Brokeback.

andrew60647

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

foolish-rain — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 06:56:57 PDT

@braak: I've seen several episodes of Ben 10 and it sounds a lot more sophisticated than it is. It's basically Pokemon with Ben being both Ash and a Pokeball: it's a series of creature battles glued together with the weakest of exposition and dialogue.

Sigh--the things I endure to bond with the kids.

foolish-rain

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

braak — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 06:54:23 PDT

@JennaW: Well, it could be lame. There are a lot of reasons that scenes get cut, and there are a lot of demands placed on the people doing the cutting, and test audiences aren't always great tests.

I'm not saying that either of you are wrong, just that it's equally likely that the scene will be cut for lame reasons as it would be for artistic reasons.

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

mattclary — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 06:54:20 PDT

I don't get it. He gets in a body bag and pretends to be dead. I realize the guy is now actually dead, but I just don't see what the big deal is.

mattclary

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

Calraigh — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 06:29:48 PDT

I may explode with excitement before X-Files comes out.

Calraigh

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 06:26:00 PDT

@SeeingI: It would not be lame; it would be an editorial choice. Things that happen outside of the context of a film can have a jarring impact on how the film's content is perceived. You don't want something in a film that takes the audience out of the film's reality, and this scene *is* doing that, apparently. Therefore, the filmmakers would be removing it in order to prevent that from happening. Scenes that don't work the way they were intended to work when filmed are cut from final edits *all* the time.

JennaW, Internet Tough Girl

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

SeeingI — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 06:15:11 PDT

I like that "in flux" quote from Doctor Who. Can't wait to see the episode.

I think editing out the body bag scene from "The Dark Knight" would not only be lame, but disrespectful to Heath Ledger. He wouldn't have shot the scene if he didn't want to make daring choices as an actor, and be remembered for being edgy and intense. Of course, he never thought he'd be "remembered" so soon, but the point still stands. He did it because he thought it would be cool and make his Joker indelible, and I think they should leave it.

SeeingI

The Dark Knight Scene So Shocking, You May Never See It

braak — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 06:14:09 PDT

See, Ben Ten...huh. That sounds like a pretty sophisticated cartoon there.

It's like...and I'm kind of really, really embarrassed to say this...but there was a cartoon show of Mighty Max for about a season. And it should have been completely retarded, yet somehow wasn't.