Another gripe -- how can the initial 7 cylons even know about the final 5 if they were programmed to never think about them? You'd think that discovering their existence would be a little more shattering, and would maybe have been a concrete impetus for the "change" they've recently experienced.

And do not get me started on the scene with Rosalin and Adama. "Maybe you're not the dying leader you thought you were." "Oh no, my hair is starting to fall out for the first time at exactly this moment where I was insulted for having cancer!" This was, officially, the most hamfisted and obnoxious scene in Battlestar history.

themidnighter

The Cylons did have a vote to box D'Anna (Rapture), though it was only hinted at, not explicitly shown.

The point is that even though individual copies of a model have disagreed, they have never broken away at an official vote before. Even Caprica Six and Boomer could not or did not break away from their model completely on New Caprica.

technophobicgeek

tazo

I'm of the feeling that it doesn't make any sense that Earth is a colony of Kobol. Never mind that it would require, I hope, a significant portion of the scientifically literate audience of this show to make a considerable suspension of disbelief to accept this- Earth is likely not a colony within the fictional BSG universe because of the shows own internal logic.

In order for there to be a map to Earth on Kobol with the configuration of the constellations as they appear at a time in Earth history where the continents have attained their present configuration someone would have already have to been to Earth as it is more or less in the present day. You can only have a map detailing a destination if you've actually already been to that destination. Both the constellations and the continents fix the time.

For the show to be consistent with its own logic, as well as our own reality, Earth would not be a colony of Kobol but the other way around. It's Kobol that would have to be a colony of Earth. In such a scenario, twelve "tribes" or ships would have left for the colonies and one tribe would have returned to Earth.

I also think that the several of the cultural parallels that the colonists seem to have with us can be explained in this way. Taking it further, their gods might merely be the names or AI's of the ships that they used to settle Kobol.

This is also consistent with some dialogue in the most recent episode where Starbuck states that when she was in Earth orbit it felt as though she had never left.

This would lead to the expectation that when the colonists do reach Earth they will find a planet some thousands of years in our future- Enough time for us to develop the technology to colonize another world (Kobol) and to see the descendants of those colonists return home. But not so far in the future that the continents would have changed significantly or the constellations would no longer be familiar.

Logan5

jermom

If I see anything of the sort I will hunt down and maim everyone involved in the episode.

I still say that there should be 13 skinjobs. One for each colony plus Earth.

daveNYC

Sorry Annalee, thank you so much for taking the time to write up such an awesome review of the episode. I will never ever question anything I read on this site, nor will I ever mention any errors again. Clearly I am just some pain in the ass who is a stickler for silly details like names.

blackeyedgurl

Git Em SteveDave seeks Lego build buddy. How about you?

The colonists destroyed their creators (the Lords of Kobol), just as the Cylons are destroying their creators (the Colonists). I think that's the story behind the cyclical nature of things, and the whole point of a hybrid was to break the cycle. It's in the Cylons interest to create a new stage in evolution (the hybrid) that won't try to destroy its creator.

So I think the ending is going to be (1) the hybrid cylon/colonists interbreeding with cavemen on Earth, and giving us the start of our mythologies passed on by the survivors in the Galactica/Basestar lifeboat that lands near the Mediterranean, or, (2) Logan5's idea, the colonists regenerate when they're near Earth -- so once Galactica finds Earth, it'll be an elightened future Earth (maybe even orbited by an old series Light Ship) where colonists and cylons all regenerate forever, and all of the dead colonists from Caprica etc. are there to greet the fleet.

tpete

Never before on this show have I questioned the writers -- but the last two episodes have been treading water so hard, it's almost unforgivable. How many more times do we have to see people debating whether or not Starbuck is a Cylon? How many more times do we have to see secret conversations of the Secret Four? I was tired of the "I'm a closeted cylon" bit by the end of Season 1. Will we be spoon-fed another "Apollo says his heartfelt goodbye to something else in slow-motion" sequence? How many more meaningless metaphysical platitudes will be uttered by random characters who would never talk like that? And for how much longer will we be faced with Rosalin making choices that directly contradict her character? It is in her character to follow Starbuck's mystical roadsigns -- they were following the path of the eye of jupiter until the next direction came to them. Starbuck flew directly into a symbol that looked like The Eye of Jupiter. Thusly, the next roadsign, to Rosalin, would absolutely be Starbuck, who was miraculously saved from death (and is also a character with whom Rosalin has shared a religious bond since early season 1).

That said -- all the ideas presented were interesting. I find the developments with the Cylons fascinating. I like the idea of sending Helo and Starbuck off in a garbage freighter. I just wish that this episode had been combined with the first one -- then we may have had 1 interesting episode instead of one mediocre episode and one terrible episode.

themidnighter

Actually, big thank you for going to the trouble of the weekend post. I know I enjoyed the extended discussion. It's nice when the topic doesn't get pushed off the front page for a couple days.

Ryan H

You prolly can't even tell the difference between a new show Viper and a Classic BSG Viper. Shuh! Poseur.

JennaW

Annalee Newitz

Also I loved the Apollo-Dualla scene where he makes the comment about her "getting the house" - Frakking hilarious!

This is the best episode of BSG in a long time.

My vote for the 5th: Anastasia Dualla-Adama. She is afterall an Adama now, and Leoben could always see the future.

blackeyedgurl

Pasketti

TheRemedy

I guess they'll deal with the resurrection issues in future episodes?

GodofMonkeys

TBH, I don't think they'll bother explaining half of the things that happen. And I kinda like that, cause they don't really raise the question, they just present an incident, and let someone else decide how or why it happened. Which is both good and, well, odd.

aspiringexpatriate

@njudah: Watch Razor. You get an idea how the skinjobs were created and who by.

@Turlough: I'm pretty show we'll at least find out who #7 is. RDM has a plan.

I think Zak being a Cylon is highly unlikely.

I think the Phantom Six and Baltar are possibly messengers of the One True God. During Starbuck's visions right before she "dies" Leoben guides her through her epiphany in quite the same manor. At the end of the scene with her dying mother she says to him, "You're not Leoben." He replies, "I never said I was." I think Starbuck might start seeing this Phantom Leoben. We know that Baltar is the "chosen one" for something and that Starbuck has a destiny. It'll being interesting to see how it plays out.

vanthuenu

[www.forgetfoo.com]

John McCain is the final Cylon.

Bill Brasky

My candidates for final Cylon are Billy and Boxey. Problem with Billy is if he is the final Cylon he would have to be resurrected and as a consequence the other Cylons would be aware that he is one of the five. Also, Caprica Six said she felt the presence of the five, that they were near, so that would suggest that the fifth one is somewhere in the fleet as well. This makes it very difficult to rationalize that either Billy or Zak are Cylons if the show is internally consistent with itself.

That makes the character of Boxey who was written off in the first season have some appeal. The insinuation back then was that it was his father who was the officer at Armistice Station and Boxey did have a special bond with Sharon. Additionally, unlike the original series he doesn't have a mother. And it would be suitably creepy and Cylon-like to make the final Cylon a child, especially since that is what they were trying to achieve. If so, he would have to be an adopted child or otherwise suffer the same obstacles as Zak, namely that how can he be a Cylon if his parents were human?

Logan5

darcymcgee

darcymcgee

It's been established that the final cylon does NOT appear in that image, ruling out Starbuck, Lee & Admiral Adama, Baltar, and the ever yummy President Roslin.

darcymcgee

darcymcgee

The last episode revealed a new array of topics about the Cylons that season 1 and 2 had not. The Cylons are learning more about humans and integrating humans into cloned Cylon humans. They developed a diverse society in their group of seven while the other five are revealed on Galactica.

Now their place of democracy is Samuel's "Animal Farm" of dictating control over the Centurians and Raiders. Yet their divided over what they plan to do to the human race with Six siding with the toasters to keep whatever growth of intellect and rights they have among their Cylon peers.

Does that mean the Centurians will soon have voices of their own like the originals?

Starbukr71

Except for the fact that the Democrats don't seem to want Madam President...

DocGratis

Annalee Newitz

FunkyJ

BTW, unrelated to anything else, a few years back I was watching some interview with RDM (this was during the first season) and my wife (who at the time wasn't watching BSG) came into the room saying "Is that Ron Moore on TV?" Turns out she knew him at Cornell!

Turlough

njudah

Which Centurions are the ones in charge of sewing and producing those skinjob fashions that are just oh-so-devine?

I swear if I don't see a gay Centurion designer a la ProRun saying "By Your Command, you Will Look FABULOUS!" well then I might just have to say this show jumped the shark!

Or not.

njudah

From the beginning he has had his Cylon bible and series bible. He knew the shape of things to come, but the details got made up as they went.

Helo was never going to be heard form again but everyone responded to him so strongly that they decided to bring him back. Same thing with Cally. She was going to be killed off early on.

So, it adapts as it goes. but none of those details are important as far as the overall plot goes. Helo may not have been planned for originally and has made a great character but his place in events could just as easily been filled in by someone else.

Imagine this: Helo is never heard from again and Cally is killed off as planned. Instead of Helo/Sharron having a baby we get the Chief/Sharron have the baby. The story changes but the plot hits all the same important points.

So, no I doubt that they had decided who any of the final five were while writing season one or two. Or even when they were introducing some of the later characters. Doesn't matter. As long as they followed their own rules (big ass cylon bible, remember?) all the way and knew the why of the final five the who didn't matter.

Same goes for the rest of the show. As long as they know roughly where they are going the details are almost better made up as needed. Prevents them from being locked in by an early call that didn't need to be made. Sort of like the seven normal Cylons. Once they were all cast everything became limited by those actor's availability. What happens if they 'cast' the final five way back in season one and someone gets hit by a car? Or a lead in another series?

Ryan H

This, of course, no longer requires any millenia-long backstory to explain the separation between the final five and the rest of the Cylons. The first five were created decades before, then the toasters were created. The toasters had knowledge of the original five humaniform Cylons, but were programmed not to think about them. Eventually they gained sentience, rebelled, and then tried to recreate humaniform Cylons on their own and came up with the 7 we know.

The first 5 are different. They age. They probably don't resurrect. Their true natures are hidden from themselves.

Of course, it's hard to explain why they are all different ages if they were all created decades before... most of them are under 40.

On the other hand, I like that Saul and Bill Adama were drawn to each other if Saul was originally created by Joe...

Anyway, unlikely to be true, but just thought it was an interesting idea...

Turlough

aspiringexpatriate

Turlough

JennaW

I like it. Good theory.

JennaW

It would make total sense, but then, how would Leoben have known since the seven don't know about the five -- unless Leoben as he approached his own death had a moment of insight given to him by his god...

Ooooooo.

JennaW

Logan5

Man me fail enlgish, that non-un-possible..

Take two:

The dying leader has visions.

DocGratis

Like all religion, literal interpretations are likely to foster debate and discussion. If the prophecy is written in the show as religion is usually understood and is metaphor rather than a literal truth than there's no reason that the leader has to be a person, just like the vipers in that scene were interpreted to be metaphors not for snakes but actually Vipers that led the attack on the Cylon refinery.

Baltar's Daydream
#6: Have you read the Pythian prophecy, Gaius?
Baltar: Not since the sixth grade. I can't say ancient history is my favorite subject.
#6: You should have paid closer attention, hmm?
Baltar: To what?
#6: All of this has happened before. All of this will happen again.
Baltar: Everyone knows that verse. What are you getting at?
#6: Remember this o ne? "Led by serpents numbering two and ten."
Baltar: The vipers... they're the serpents.

Logan5

All in all great episode, though Tory crying during sex was rather disturbing...

TheRemedy

DocGratis

I think the "dying leader" is so obvious it's been overlooked- It's not Roslin, nor Starbuck, nor any other character- It's the Galactica that will never see Earth.

Looking back at the episodes leading up to the season finale, it also seemed that it was the nebula that "activated" the four Cylons as the song became louder to them as they approached it and once they arrived all the ships shut down- By extension if the nebula had this effect on the ships and the sleeper Cylons it can be argued that it had some effect on the Raiders as well. This would explain why previously the Centurions were incapable of telling that the Tigh, Tory, Tyrell, and Anders were part of the remaining Cylons.

Logan5

Falconfire

It could be that Baltar is the final cylon and his journey from shallow, selfish ass to self-sacrificing saint is the road of the final cylon. The humans started out selfish, the cylons are becoming more selfish, and Baltar is the bridge between them. Kind of similar to what might happen to Lee if he becomes the final leader. Or Kara...

Anyway, the actual reason I wanted to comment: A possible explanation for the cyclical "this has all happened before" nature of the universe. What if the cylons are the mechanism god (evolution, the universe, whatever) uses to keep the human race alive? What if genocide/self-destruction are inevitable, and the survivors of the 12 colonies go through the cycle and then escape to earth, where they go through the cycle and escape to the 12 colonies, where they go through cycle...?

I hate to draw this parallel, but it would be like Zion in the Matrix: they grow until they create a crisis, the machines trim them back and let them start again with a much smaller group.

So they arrive back on a post-apocalyptic/abandoned earth and start again.

Also, god is all over the show -- the perfectly timed supernova, the visions, the healed child. Maybe Baltar will achieve enlightenment and be the only one to make it to earth, where he'll land in the middle east, oh, 2,000 years ago...

And one gripe: they let Lee leave? You're down to less than 40K humans and you're throwing former drug runners and sports heroes into the cockpit, Starbuck is a nutjob/cylon plant with an inexplicably perfect ship, you know there are other cylons around and you don't know who they are, the cylons you do know about inexplicably run when they've got you cold, and you let your best guy, your son, one who has commanded a battlestar and who you personally saw pop out of the womb (OK, I'm guessing there), explore his political options? And all the pilots who will have one less excellent pilot to watch their backs applaud?

Suspension of disbelief to full, aye.

1369ic

Maxxofor

Big bada boom.

strider_mt2k

Leoben whispered to Roslin "Adama is a Cylon" after being interrogated by Starbuck during the first season. He just didn't say which one. And Lee made a point of saying to Adama last week "What if it was Zak who stepped out of that Viper instead of Starbuck?" would make sense that the 5th was guiding Starbuck even back then.

That or the pipe-wielding ninja cult follower who shaved Baltar. She was just too smug about "Feeling the one true god coarse through her system" after laying the beat down to be just a hippy-chick follower.

EBone

Evdor

Until the scripts got dumbed down, I remember Tory as one of the more-rational-sounding characters in the show. Now she's just as inconsistent and dissociative as the rest of them.

BG sure ain't the show I remember from season 2.

Moeskido

Bill Brasky

The basestar internals, the hybrids, voting, operating the computers/basestar... definitely the weakest, most poorly developed part of the show.

Tim Faulkner

@StrangelyBrown: Agreed. Did we need two (two!) 2-minute scenes with people clapping for Lee? In essence, we had 10 minutes of Cylon plot (which was worth it). The rest of the last 2 episodes has been a big mini-series to set up and explicate the action for the rest of the series.

@Gina Trapani: I thought your theory was pretty well established and believed by many a long time ago. Guess not. As soon as Roslin declared herself the leader, it was obvious she was not. With everything pointing to Starbuck so strongely, I almost think there's time to develop her as another false lead too. Or at least, the value and meaning of the prophesy getting extremely deluded and ambiguous like "The One" in Star Wars. It could be Starbuck or Gaius. But now I think it's Lee. I don't think Starbuck will die, and I don't think she's ever going to be a "leader" even if she is firmly the CAG or even becomes Admiral. With Lee in politics now and Roslin dying, anyone want to bet Roslin dies at some point this season and Lee becomes the new President? I bet he makes the final decision to take the Fleet in Kara's direction.

@lazlopink: Even better, how 'bout having no Boomers around on Caprica, but then, just when Boomer and Helo are about to escape, one foolishly walks around the corner! Doh! (Yeah, yeah, it's part of the plan.) I don't see your examples as lacking forethought but rather expose the kludgy, soap opera style plotting. Clearly he set up 12 models and having them present at key moments would have made sense but would have denied them the plotting of reveals for the audience. So realism is sacrificed for suspense and excitement. Hell, the "black guy" Cylon's sole purpose so far has been -- a new guy we didn't know before he was revealed as a Cylon.

@nospamsam: The inhibitors and the Centaurions really confuse me. Didn't the programmers have to be Centaurions or early model human-made Cylons? And then they were enslaved in essence by their creation (which would explain why they wouldn't respond to the Four -- even though I think the Hendrix experience/awakening is the key anyway). Weren't the human Cylons bitching about human enslavement for two seasons? But they enslaved their own kind to make them controllable? What?

@Posthaus: To me, the Four are definitely different than the other human Cylons. And the Fifth is even more different. I see the differences as striving closer and closer to humanity. The skinjobs are nearly there but have latent programming and clones so they are still far removed from true humanity. The four aren't aware of their purpose and must discover it for themselves. They are probably unique and can't be resurrected. Also, the numbers were finally revealed (I think). The skinjobs are 1-6 and 8. The final four are 9-12. The final Cylon is 7, smack in the middle of 12, the key position. The most important skinjobs, the ones who have progressed the most in their humanity, bookend seven, 6 and 8.

What annoyed me: Zarek "nominated" Lee to the Quorem? What? A Sagittaron nominates a Caprican to a position? The colonies don't select their own representatives, there selected by different colonies? Or is a Caprican representing the Sagittarons? Yeah, that's realistic politics.

The whole independence-collective operation of the skinjobs seems out of whack. Cavil boxed Xena on his own without a vote. That's okay. Boomer 8 has already been doing things which seem independent of the 8 model based on her experiences with the humans. The Cylons already know that Athena 8 has switched sides. But independence during voting? That just blows their mind?!

Things I like: revealing that there are 12 models has finally been justified. (There was no advantage to it.) But what it sets up is the Four looking for the final Cylon since they know there is one more. Part of their purpose has been revealed to them without them being aware/programmed.

Looking forward to: Xena not getting unboxed for a while. Sorry, never liked Lucy and don't like her character. Or maybe not. Clearly 6 will do so to discover the final five, but presumably that won't be revealed until near the end. (Unless she keeps it to herself or finds a reason to only reveal the four -- dammit, she might be back soon.)

What I think: The cyclicality ("This has all happened before") won't be set up so much by what they find on Earth, but by the newly introduced conflict between Dean and 6 -- will the Cylon skinjobs be indistinguishable from humans and the "robots" (which seem to be Terminators with some organic material, by the way, that seems knew and noteworthy -- I never stopped to think they , like the Raiders, are part biological) may rise up against their own slavery. Cool, hadn't seen that coming. That I like. But the skinjobs "inhibiting" Cylons -- that doesn't make sense and needs explaining.

Alright, the liquor is wearing off and I need sleep... Nobody post anything I may feel the need to respond to until Monday!

Tim Faulkner

Baltar couldn't tell Adama outright since he would have to reveal exactly how he knew, so trying to make amends for causing humanity's destruction, he left the note.

As far as RDM making up the story as he goes, he's admitted as much. Helo wasn't supposed to appear beyond the pilot, but he ended up being a major character. The Hybrid controllingthe basestars came from a sketch his art director did for the re-birth tubs the Cylons wake up in - he just took the sketch and wrote a new character. And RDM said on one of the recap specials that he "Wanted a shocking season three finale, and what's more shocking than making Tigh a Cylon?" He changed the rules at the last minute for ratings. Now the writers have to paint their way out of this corner.

EBone

1) Galactica arrives to modern day earth and meets up with bible belt america, be interesting to see how the monotheistic americans react to a polytheistic galactica at war with the monotheistic cylons.

2) The other possibility I thought had real merit, was if galactica arrived in the time of the ancient greeks.

Let me know your thoughts

Shinju

Acheman

That underlined why Cavil and Boomer were so concerned. The fact is that they *are* both far more realistic than Six, and they realized the danger of flying a fleet of Base Stars that had become essentially defenseless.

As far as any of the Cylons know, the Glactica could be hunting them down. Or they could run into another "lost" Battlestar like the Pegasus. Or the Cylon plague could strike again. The Raider revolt put a nice urgency into the debate.

If only the Base Star interior sets didn't look so much like a cheap nightclub in Reno. The art direction of the interior sets is a total mismatch to the Base Star's incredible exterior design, which has always bugged me.

I'm still having a lot of trouble understanding how Cylon society got from the point it was at the end of the first Cylon war to the point of the sneak attack.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the re-imagined series, when the Cylon revolt began, there were only Centurions. The Raiders were just spacecraft - they still had to be flown by a team of Centurions, just like in the original series. We see this in Razor. And, from all indications, the Centurions are sentient, but not super-intelligent.

Again, we see in Razor that at the very end of the first Cylon war, the Centurions had begun to conduct some initial research on skin jobs. This is the lab that Adama finds. I assume that they used that research to create the first hybrid.

The problem is this - at the end of the war, the Base Star with the first hybrid bugs out and abandons the rest of the Cylon fleet.

So what happens over the next few decades in the main Cylon society?

The Centurions somehow rediscover how to make skin jobs and hybrids, as well as develop Raiders, the advanced final four, and the super-duper advanced final hidden Cylon?

And then, after all this incredible engineering, they immediately get conned by the skin jobs and enslaved by inhibitor chips?

And somewhere in there the final five steal a ship and head for the colonies? But Tigh, for one, had already been alive to quite awhile at that point. Was he replaced? How did they know enough about him to copy him?

The whole timeline still seems very iffy on the Cylon side of things. And the clock on the series is ticking.

courtstreet

All_Thumbs

Quote me now: Cylon is not Cylon and Human is not Human. Addama is the Adama you know, not the Adama you have seen recently. Centurian of the future are the part are the Salvation.

'nuff said.

holocron

lazlopink

Zantor

lazlopink

Zantor

NO, EVEN BETTER! He's "Count Iblis"

Zantor

Two things came to mind in that whole thing ; 1 how did automotons designed for combat and labor suddenly develop this wide ranging philosophy AND an interest and ability to make bio-cylons and 2: what happened to the person(s) who invented them? I mean I can see a plotline whereby the person(s) who invented them might have been horrified at what they'd done - but not want to see them wiped out of existence and instead try to "fix" them etc etc.

just wondering.

njudah

That said, I love the idea of a cyclic conflict played out through the ages over and over. I strongly suspect that the only people that will be unhappy with the end are those who don't keep an open mind.

I can't see any way a third party could be brought into this without violating the spirit of the show. It remains entirely possible that I will be proved wrong i the fullness of time.

Ryan H

I've listened to all the podcasts, and I'm sure from what he says in them that he knows where he's going with this. And if BSG didn't know what they were aiming for, they wouldn't have planned to end the series this season.

This is far different from the Lost creators thinking they were such clever little boys for realizing that knowing where they were going with the story was kind of important to figure out *before* they wrote themselves into such a tiny corner, there was no way out. Or for realizing it after Stephen King suggested it might be wise.

You don't have to know the middle to tell a story -- you can find that out on your way [or "pull it out of your arse" as for some reason people keep saying in this thread as if it means something when discussing a show that has shown pretty strong internal plot consistency] -- BUT you should really have a good idea about how the story's going to end.

JennaW

I'll shut up now. I'm giving myself a headache.

Zantor

These four are very different from the other cylons. Whoever/whatever the "original programmer" is, it created two essentially different species of artificial beings. May also explain why no Cylons recognize them or why Baltar's "detector" doesn't work on them (if it works at all). The final five are players in a very long game which is only now entering its endgame phase. I suspect much of what's happening in the show now will have been planned long before (although not necessarily by RDM! I do believe he's making it up as he goes along).

@jaybushman: I agree, there is another player. I'm not sure I'd agree it is the final cylon. It might be the person or thing that the Cylon's consider as their god.

Turlough

Ok set you to 3- light brown and...

DocGratis

I completely agree that this series has diverged far too much from the original show to be paying homage unnecessarily, except when concepts from the original show have some relevance or value. That may very well be the case with the ship of lights story line of the original show. In this show the concept seems more entwined with the metaphysical, particularly that gap between life and death that Deanna visited and the various visions regarding the opera house.

If the colonists, and by extension Cylons, are descendants of our own descendants, this would also parallel the ship of lights story arc in that the inhabitants of Earth contemporary to the series would presumably be just as advanced to the colonials of this series as the inhabitants of the ship of lights were to the characters of the original series.

At least that may be the way the internal of logic of the show might be pointing. Of course since this is a work of fiction there is no reason for the show's creators to wrap up the series in any way that is consistent with its own logic. For all we know, the show will end up with the Galactica floating inside of a snow globe in the hands of a depression era autistic kid in homage to another show from the 80's.

Logan5

My guess...episode....9.

darcymcgee

At this point they can get away with ANYTHING that can fit within that framework and the viewers will accept it. Hell, Baltar could get pregnant and as long it gets presented as part of what has come before it would pass.

But a real 'Ship of Light' or literal God character? As an outside explanation for some events it works. However, they are not part of the narrative at this point. Part of the mind space of the series is that there are the two faction, Human and Cylon, and the lines between them.

To add a third faction, even one designed to explain events, violates the internal logic of the show.

Any outside force almost has to be a result of or is the final cylon. Anything else and they may as well just have Roslin wake up and realize the whole thing was a dream brought on by her cancer meds.

Ryan H

JennaW

The Final Five are special so perhaps the programming of the Raiders and Centurions classes them as more important than the rest and to be protected at all costs (or not-harmed at all costs).

JennaW

@Zantor: OOOoooo! I hadn't thought of that -- YES!

JennaW

It was pretty good overall, I'd say getting back to the glory that was seasons 1 and 2. The centurions' vengeance was brilliant.

Waelwulf

I'm pretty sure Baltar's Cylon detector did work..just remember back when that was going on, how he lamented how long it would take to go through and test every individual in the fleet. It's quite possible it was never finished.

There is also the possiblity that the final five are different enough from the other seven skinjobs that the detector might not be able to detect them, either. It's hard to say, that story thread was dropped ages ago.

Posthaus

The nebula is also interesting as a map post to Earth and the ability of Starbuck to sense the way to Earth from this location. It remains unexplained how it is that Starbuck ended up in the nebula in a pristine ship if she's not a Cylon unless...

Fingers point to an error in the history and mythology of the Colonials. The Colonials didn't come from Kobol but rather from Earth, a fact that is consistent with our own reality since there is an overabundance of evidence pointing to the fact that we evolved here along with all the other organisms from chimpanzees to fungus that we are genetically related to.

Additionally, how is it that a map to Earth was found on Kobol unless someone who had made that trip was there to provide the directions? Someone who had been to Earth would have had to provide the star map on Kobol and surrounding mythology about its existence.

So my speculation is if Earth was the origin of the colonials it would be an Earth of the future. This would explain some cultural similarities between the colonials and us. The gods they worship were the AI's of the ships that they took to inhabit Kobol and possessed greek names. The colonials were to us what the Cylons are to them. And what Starbuck experienced was a lot like the resurrection that Deanna experienced- She really did die in that planet and was "downloaded" back to Earth where humans more advanced than us live.

Logan5

Zantor

how about... THE DEVIL!

Well not likely, but I did think it with the black suit and the tiny hint of red shirt.

DocGratis

romolampkin

monkity

MUFFET!

You laugh... Just wait,

Zantor

After last night's episode, I am convinced that phantom Six and phantom Baltar are, and have always been, tools or proxies of the final hidden cylon.

jaybushman

That would make the Fifth Cylon
.
.
.
You guessed it, Dilbert!

nospamsam

I've been saying to my BSG-lovin' friends that they're going to hold us over a barrel over who the last Cylon is until the last or next to last episode (so, sometime in 2009). And I wouldn't put it past them to tell us the whole story only if we put them up against a wall and have a Centurian shoot them... So, not even in this prequel we keep hearing about will we ever know the whole story.

That's why they call it television...

monkity

;)

See that is why you have that star..

rewatch the episode(s) where he was drafted into helping Lee hold that... place on that planet (brain sludgey!) and see if the Centurions acted oddly.

I still hold that the Centurions (with their inhibitors) are less aware and autonomous than the radiers.
Anders, Tigh and the chief have all been the wrong end of the Centurion before. (Caprica, the temple and eye of Jupiter, and the whole occupation)

DocGratis

how is it that on caprica there are no simons until after the reveal of starbuck's ovary snatching? how is it that on caprica, there are no cavils at all? how is it that on caprica there are no d'anas until after the "shocking" reveal on the fleet. what, they were standing behind the trees that the centurions were busy potting in the streets. why were the cylons so busily tidying up caprica and making it all colony like if they were just going to abandon it to chase the rag-tags?

moore's experience on star trek was to have to string all of the implausible nonsense together with high tech baffle-gab by the end of an episode. now that he's running a show, all of the gaps and flaws in the story arc are being plugged by luck, coincidence and spiritualist mumbo-jumbo. and a cover tune apparently. unless... oh far out dude, bob dylan is the last cylon. that's so heavy. nah. they're making it up as they go along. still it looks pretty darn cool.

lazlopink

Gina Trapani

@Marcus: @JennaW:
The reason that Baltar's cylon detector didn't ID any of the final five is that the final version does not infact work.

After IDing Boomer (and lying to her about it) he decides that life would be simpler if he just changed the machine to give nothing but negative results.

And I'd like to give a big thinks for this getting posted on the weekend. It's nice not having to wait until Monday to hash it all out :)

Oh, and anyone really scratching their heads over half remembered minor details, check out Battlestar Wiki. Depository of all things BSG.

Ryan H

Marcus

Sure, the show made it look like it scanned his eye, but that doesn't mean it detected him that way. A Raider can look at a number six or eight and know they are cylons, why couldn't it do the same for the Final Five if it knows what they look like as well?

smcallah

Marcus

Side note: I'll be interested to see who triggered that subroutine AND I still want to know who left that note in the pilot that said there were 12 models of humany Cylons. To my knowledge, that hasn't been answered, has it?

Marcus

deucailion

Marcus

It may be retcon for why they never detected the presence of them while being so close to them, but still, it was explained.

smcallah

But I think it has to do with his activation, too -- I don't think he or the others were vibing Cylon before "All Along the Watchtower."

JennaW

As far as this show is concerned, I am just along for the ride, and it is a great one.

@StrangelyBrown: I agree with you. But it was still a great episode. Also, i bet the majority of us could sum up the major 'plot developments' in our entire lives in about ten minutes, with (ironically enough) the rest being repetition and screaming.

deucailion

Marcus

Darkweave

Intersting Scully/Mulder believer/non-believer flippage happening there.

Also, I wish Starbuck had screeched at the top of her lungs just a bit less.

Finally, loved the goodbye moment between Lee and Dualla, even though the Starbuck kiss got two thumbs up.

Gina Trapani

And yeah, many copies, but finite garage space.

Marcus

StrangelyBrown

JennaW

StrangelyBrown

It's almost as if that were a running plotline that had been articulated more than once since at least early last season!

;)

JennaW

JennaW

JennaW

Marcus

JennaW

JennaW

JennaW

Marcus

I'm not saying there's no way to come up with explanations for this stuff after the fact (I'm a Next Generation fan, so it ain't like I've never seen it before). But an explanation that the raiders are the only ones capable of detecting them because no one has thought to keep them from it (which is essentially why the other models can't, by that explanation) is flimsy at best.

Marcus

and what about Boomer having a relationship with Chief, one of the final five? What was that about? Was it in their programming that they hook up and have a Cylon child together?

and what's going on with Chief and Cally's kid? is that the fabled hybrid instead of Sharon and Helo's?

aargh!

emit_flesti

What if:
The skin jobs don't notice the final five because they were "programed not to look for them".

The raiders have a less evolve intelligence more instinctive, like dogs. And were able to sense them (in close proximity)
They have been referred to ask "like a pet" numerous times.

The Toaster heads? I dunno, that inhibitor? Maybe?

DocGratis

lovelyivy

That's because it's all being pulled out of Moore's ass. There are a number of things in these last few episodes that reek of eleventh-hour retconning, and it's "rankling my ass". I want to know why, in all of his time on Caprica as a resistance fighter, and all of his time on New Caprica, did no Cylon finger Anders as one of their own? Hell, Tigh was a captive of them for a good long time, even getting one of his apparently-important-scan-target eyes removed, and they didn't ID him?

Felgercarb.

I don't think these four were Cylons when this story started. I doubt they were when season 3 started. It's like Nina Myers being a mole at the end of season 1 of 24. Something brought in at the end in a "wouldn't it be wild if..." thing that stuff from before contradicts, but let's just hope no one notices. Raises the question, "Does Moore know who the final Cylon is?"

I betcha it's Boxey.

Marcus

Annalee Newitz

DocGratis

To go further (and more into speculation), the Centurions (with their inhibitors) would not have been capable of noting the final five (they have shot at 3 of the 5 on a regular basis)

But this is the first time a Raider had a one on one with one of the final five.

@Monsieur.Mind: I would say that this could be the first time a raider was one on one with a final five. (excluding shooting at the Chief in a Raptor)

DocGratis