<![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction? - io9 Comments]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction? - io9 Comments]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> Brilliant list [seeing Mal, Gully Foyle, and Spider Jerusalem in one list is Made Of Win]. Only complaint: Where's John Constantine?

cloudhunter

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> I personally think that Gully Foyle (insane props for referencing him, as The Stars My Destination is a classic that just doesn't get the credit it deserves most of the time) falls more into the Western antihero category you set out here - throughout the novel, his goal is to apprehend the ship Vorga, and take revenge on its captain for passing him by. Regardless of how his methods and general mentality change throughout the novel, this is always his primary goal, and he sacrifices a great deal - in resources, personal sacrifice and even the sacrifice of other people - in order to pursue it. The result of his quest, however, happens to have the potential for a massive social and philosophical revolution. Really, it kind of mirrors how Riddick's own history ties into the Western genre.

As for mad scientists, I agree that they're not just foils for the heroes, but are often anti-heroes in their own right. Based on that premise, I would say there's a definite sub-archetype of the "Prometheus" in the mad scientist: The brilliant, dedicated person with a vision to improve mankind and/or the world around him, no matter what the cost to himself (or indeed others). Desty Nova (from the GUNNM/Battle Angel Alita manga) and Trevor Goodchild (from the show Æon Flux) are, in my mind, the two most powerful examples of this. Both are incredibly intelligent, with an obsessive drive to change the world around them; both are willing to sacrifice everything and have no reservations about allowing or causing harm to come to others for their cause. This causes the tone in which they're written to shift from anti-hero and temporary ally, to the most reprehensible villain possible. In some cases, they're even written very sympathetically, or with a tragic undertone to their story. Their methods also vary according to the subtext of their story - Desty Nova's methods are primarily catalytic in nature, attempting to bring out the latent greatness in each individual; Trevor Goodchild's, on the other hand, are muatgenic, attempting to change the world to his whims and adding to the constant flux and uncertainty that defines his fictional universe. Each has a touch of the "Skeptic" in him as well, as he disapproves of the general structure of the world around him and serves as a crituqe to it even as he attempts to alter it irrevocably.

Ubik2501

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> No mention of Hiro Protagonist?

sharky

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Grey_Area:
Okay that was weird, everything got purpleated. I should really preview these ramblings first. Sorry.
I was trying to point out how unlike the Operative in "Serenity", Dash (not Dah) Hammett's Op gets aked his name and he replies but the reader never learns what it is. Can't really do that in cinema, no?



Grey_Area

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @cljohnston108 I wnet up to the barmaid and asked for Louie.
Rinsing out a glass she looked me over and said, "Yah, we was expecting you, I think. What's your name?"
I told her and followed her to the back office.
It's a cute trick but Dah managed to keep that up In All The Stories. I always found that pretty sneaky.
Makes me think of that mostly wretched "Judge Dredd" movie where the producing pinheads wimped out and gave Dredd a first name --"Joe".
LAME!






Grey_Area

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Mathmos: Sam is one of the more anti of the RAH heros. Good call.

RAHfanboy

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> No mention of my boy Sawyer from Lost?

lukeoneil47

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Grey_Area: "I've always wondered how a Continental Op movie could be made without changing the unnamed narrator shtick."
Well, there was The Operative in Serenity...

cljohnston108

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> Modern scifi is replete with anti-heroes. I'll mention a few among those I find most entertaining:

Ashraf Bey from Jon Courtenay Grimwood's Arabesk trilogy

Almost anyone from Alastair Reynold's Revelation Space series and other, very noir-influenced works.

Imre Bergamasc from Sean Williams' Astropolis series

Almost anyone from Sean McMullen's Greatwinter series

If androids count, perhaps Mr. Crane from Neil Asher's Polity stories

These are all writers from the UK and Australia. Can anyone tell me some good examples from U.S. authors? Perhaps I should mention that I quickly got bored by Altered Carbon.

Mathmos

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> We're talking science fiction anti-heroes, and no mention of Snake Plissken? For shame!

brundlefly

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @RAHfanboy: Guess I was mainly thinking of Sam in Starman Jones, with those you mentioned in the back of my mind.

Mathmos

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @NefariousNewt: "Just thought of another possible anti-hero: Keith Laumer's Retief."

Oh, NN! I think of Retief as pure hero! Like Simon Templar without the criminal background. I'm glad you mentioned him, he's always been one of my favorites.

RAHfanboy

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Mathmos: The ones I remember were just experienced realists, vs young idealists. Jubal from "Stranger," the Professor from "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress," and ol' Buddy Boy, Lazarus Long, from all manner of novels/stories, just to name a few. You're probably right though, they're certainly not classic heroes.

RAHfanboy

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Charlie Jane Anders: You beat me to it, Charlie. Thomas Covenant is the antiest of the antis. For the most part, the books stand for themselves, so don't feel you have to commit to all six. At the risk of having my house stormed by geeks and nerds with pitchforks and torches, it's better than LOTR.

RAHfanboy

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @CmdrHunt: Why, thank you!

@tinpantithesis: *grin*

Stephanie A Fox

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> I'm not sure what people thought was so great about Altered Carbon. I read it and Kovacs just seemed like a glaring Mary Sue for the entire book. Every gun fight (and there are SO many gun fights) ends up with him winning just because Morgan has created him as such a badass from the beginning. It's basically gun porn.

quetzilla

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Charlie Jane Anders: Ha ha! and yes, much, thanks.

Evil Tortie's Mom

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> I just want to say that I didn't think the world could handle the combined hot of putting Nathan Fillion and Harrison Ford in the same graphic. I'm happy to see I'm wrong.

tinpantithesis

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> You know, true heroes do seem to begin naive tools, but most recent anti-heroes begin their heroic activities (whether they recognize their activities as heroic or not) after someone has successfully either fooled them or used them.

MonkeyT

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> The anti-hero began as the "realistic" hero, as opposed to the cartooney white knight who was always polite, never killed his enemies, and never asked for a reward. Thus was created the "modern" hero - who DID want a reward out of it, who DID kill his enemies, and who swore sometimes.
So, as Superman begat Wolverine, so did Buck Rogers beget Han Solo.


James7344

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Grey_Area: Yeah, I forgot Ferbin & Holse. I'll have to take a look at Matthew Hughes' more recent books. I read some of his early work, which did some very influenced by Vance.

Mathmos

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Charlie Jane Anders: Was going to add my love for Hammett as well but thought my li'l noir icon was a dead giveaway.
I've always wondered how a Continental Op movie could be made without changing the unnamed narrator shtick. what do your writer types think, a worthwhile challenge or just insufferably twee?

Grey_Area

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @sumocat: I wasn't making a value judgment, per se: Luke, Neo, and Flash Gordon are all naive tools at the start of their stories. So are Paul Atreides, Buck Rogers, Leeloo in Fifth Element, and a bunch more. Fortunately for us, they don't stay that way, and what makes them interesting is that, in their respective journeys, they all take on aspects of the anti-hero before reaching the end.

StrangelyBrown

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Rus: Wow, our blog is full of Hammett fans. Awesome!

Charlie Jane Anders

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> A more recent echo of Gully Foyle, Angus Thermopyle from Stephen Donaldson's Gap books is a brutally unrepentant villain through the entire series, using and abusing everyone until more conniving villains got leverage on him. In the end, he gets his vengeance even though he knows he's saving the day for other people whom he would gleefully kill, given opportunity.

MonkeyT

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @StrangelyBrown: "In dystopian fiction, any protagonist who isn't an anti-hero comes across as a completely naive tool." -- You say that as if that's a bad thing. It works in cases when the hero is at the beginning of his journey and necessarily green, such as Luke Skywalker and Neo. Another example is Flash Gordon who was thrust into an alien world with no familiarity with how things are "supposed to work". The noble hero mold is fine when it is done correctly.

sumocat

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> Oooh, oooh...I just remembered Marid from George Alec Effinger's Budayeen stories. Now there was an great cyberpunk anti-hero.

Grey_Area

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Mathmos: The recent Hengis Hapthorn novels stories by Matthew Hughes channel alot of both Vance and Wodehouse, nearly every review mentions this. Funny stuff set in a very odd universe.

In Iaian M. Banks' latest, "Matter", I felt a big Woostery vibe from Prince Ferbin & his manservant Holse, although the latter is more Passepartout than Jeeves.

Does Gene Wolfe's Severeian count as a SF anti-hero?

Grey_Area

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Tim Faulkner: I just re-read Red Harvest the other week, and while the Op does have his moments of charity in other stories, what makes him an anti-hero for me is that moment in RH where the fatigue finally gets to him, and he stops and realizes what it is he's orchestrated in Poisonville, and how many people he's personally getting killed. Maybe they "deserve" it, but he's still responsible for a metic ton of death and misery, and he starts to wish he wasn't. And then he follows through and finishes what he started.

Opinions will vary, and that's a good thing, but for my money? It's a certain ruthless quality that marks out a hero from an anti-hero.

Rus

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> Just thought of another possible anti-hero: Keith Laumer's Retief. While he's technically part of a bureaucracy, he does things his way to resolve situations, is not too subtle about it, and spends an awful lot of time seeing to his own pleasures.

NefariousNewt

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Miranda Kali: And here I thought that I was the only one who had read that book. Definitely full of anti-heroes as well as some anti-villains (the paladin character comes to mind in that respect).

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Watchmen. I personally see Rorschach as a kind of anti-hero. But he doesn't seem to fit within the archetypes mentioned above. Additionally I have to wonder whether one could consider Ozymandias a sort of anti-hero as well, within the context of the comic.

wolfjoat

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> In dystopian fiction, any protagonist who isn't an anti-hero comes across as a completely naive tool. And since most sci-fi is dystopian, well, there you go.

Can anyone name an anti-hero from a utopian sci-fi story?

I think it's been established before that the anti-hero is far more prevalent in western literature and mythology than the "pure hero". Gilgamesh, Hercules, Beowulf, Robin Hood, Hamlet -- all anti-heroes.

Ironically, the source of our contemporary idea of the "pure hero" is likely the Old West melodrama, which gave us our notion of the "hero in the white hat". The Old West was seen as a utopian epigone for much of the twentieth century, and as I said, you don't usually have anti-heroes in utopian fiction. This view of the utopian West started to change when we, as a culture, began to see Manifest Destiny as a Bad Thing, and the dystopian Western (with its anti-heroes) was born. (There's probably a dissertation in that somewhere...)

Extrapolating from that, you could probably argue that every pure hero in sci-fi/fantasy has his basis in the Western genre (I'm looking right at you, Sheriff Kirk). Even the "knight in shining armor" himself owes more to Disney's cowboy-inspired interpretations of the fairy tales than the much darker, more morally ambiguous source material.

StrangelyBrown

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @braak: Maybe Myron Tany in Jack Vance's last 2 books, Ports of Call and Lurulu.

More Jeeves pastiches out there I imagine.

Mathmos

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> What a great article, and what great comments... This is the stuff I come here for, not the bitchy-whiny complaints from people who disagree with the article writers. This is gold, Jerry, gold!

And how could you forget about Bender? If there's anyone threading the fine line between hero/villain (well, anti-hero) it's definitely that lovable rascal!

jbq

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @braak: And you know this cause you just deleted all the others?

aspiringexpatriate

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Pope John Peeps II: Annalee and I were debating this yesterday... she ended up convincing me there's no difference between an anti-hero and a villain-protagonist. They're the same thing, or at least overlapping categories.

Charlie Jane Anders

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Evil Tortie's Mom: Curse you and your "I read the source material more recently" trumping! BTW, hope the allergies are better.

Charlie Jane Anders

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Mathmos: Arthur Dent is probably the only example.

braak

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Mathmos:

I went to Wikipedia, the source of all true knowledge, (insert some stupid smiley face) and Arthur Dent is indeed listed as an Antihero.

AlfaCharger

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @AlfaCharger: Yet another related category is the bumbling Bertie Wooster in space, arguably a variety of anti-hero. Arthur Dent is probably one example.

Mathmos

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Tim Faulkner: I read some Op stories about 3 months ago, and I agree with you. Heck, in one of them, at the end, he does a very nice thing for someone who will never know it.

@Pope John Peeps II: yep, anti-hero can be the protagonist and vice versa, but isn't always.

Evil Tortie's Mom

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> Forgot to mention Kirth Gersen from Jack Vance's Demon Princes stories. And of course, Cugel the Clever was about as anti as a hero can get, if The Dying Earth counts as scifi.

Mathmos

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> If you're into westerns you gotta see Eastwood in High Plains Drifter for the ultimate anti-hero.

spacedcowboy

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Charlie Jane Anders: Thanks Charlie for the edit. Ennio is one of my favorite composers.

As for Alex being an "Anti Hero" or not? I looked up the definition of Antihero in my old Webster's Dictionary. It says, "A protagonist who is notably lacking in heroic qualities". I think Alex from A Clockwork Orange, in both the film and book falls within this definition.

Now the Hooker with the Heart of Gold....?

AlfaCharger

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> Spider is Hunter S. Thompson in the future.
That should give you a good idea of where the story goes.

Plague

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> Fafhrd and The Gray Mouser from the Fritz Leiber series are fantasy anti-heroes.

Pop Socket

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Pope John Peeps II: Also it's helpful to distinguish between the anti-hero, who retains a core of honour and integrity even though it's twisted and mangled, and the protagonist of a story.

A sympathetic villain can be a protagonist, and we like to think of him as an anti-hero because we sympathize with whoever's telling the story, but he's not the same thing.

Pope John Peeps II

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @designguybrown: oh god... does that mean bush is an anti-hero?

Actually... he would be more accurately what an anti-hero is. I mean, he's only looking out for his own ends, and he's 'getting the job done' in an assbackwards way.

The theory that an anti-hero is ultimately decent is one I find very flawed. He's just likable.

aspiringexpatriate

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> There's also Michael Moorcock's Elric of Menibone, who, despite being a fantasy character, is part of the Eternal Champion series and therefore also sci-fi, to a point. :P

strangeasangels

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> Woooo! Gully Foyle! That is all it takes for me to like an article. Briefly mention a character from a 50 year old sci-fi story. ... that story is twice as old as I am. Disturbing. I still have the two book anthology of sci-fi stories that my dad gave me. I might have to go back and read it again.

Spider Jeruselam, I've heard of him, but never read any of the comics. Love the grin. Really do. It just says "You should sweat."

Ghede

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @NefariousNewt: That's not really true. They get burnt all the time, and quite often end up doing really shitty things to get out of a jam.

Anti-heroes aren't at all good people. They're just fundamentally good people who do really shitty, selfish angry things a lot.

Pope John Peeps II

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> We identify with the anti-hero, because s/he is just out doing their thing, trying to make their way through world, has just enough scruples to be considered "a decent person" but not too many that it gets in the way of making a living. They aren't always the strongest or the fastest or the smartest, but they have gritty determination mixed with guile and a healthy instinct for self-preservation. No matter how tight the jam they get in, they may get singed but never scorched. They are the average, everyday person writ large.

NefariousNewt

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @The_Real_Quiet_Desperation:
ahh yes: the ends justify the means... i can't think of any event in history that came out ass-backwards because someone thought the rules were just for losers - hollywood, of course, knows best.

designguybrown

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> Speaking of antiheroes, Gizmodo has Drunken Darth video up! My hero!

Tim Faulkner

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> Because while the hero is hand wringing over the Prime Directive, getting the vapors worrying about people's feelings and filing an environmental impact report, the anti-hero is getting the job done.

The_Real_Quiet_Desperation

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Tim Faulkner: Yes. Frankenstein and Caleb Williams strike me as strong anti-heroes. The modern anti-hero is mostly another name for an unrepentent badass, which... can also be a great character.

aspiringexpatriate

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Charlie Jane Anders: You know at first I was with dave on this one. Alex doesn't make for much of an anti-hero so much as a story from the viewpoint of a villian made sympathetic thought is situation. He really does lack any sort of redeeming qualities.

But then I looked up wikipedia's entry on anti-heroes and I saw " a persona characterized by a lack of "traditional" heroic qualities," which is pretty much Alex.

However, the other guys you mention in the article at least have a goal in mind, and Han Solo and Mal WILL do the right thing in the end, even if it's against his best interests, so I'm not sure if that fits the tone of the article.

Can we call Alex a protagonist and call it even?

learned_hands

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> That's a problem with film and tv anti-heroes. They wind up doing a good thing.

Here's an example of the opposite:
Let's take a look at Chandler's Long Goodbye where Marlowe winds up acting the paladin, even if his intentions are to not.

Altman's The Long Goodbye, with Elliot Gould as Marlowe acts from more identifiable reasoning- the cat, the girl, getting assaulted, and confusion. Yet what he winds up doing in the end, is not the act of a paladin, but it's also not evil. It's very, very grey. And it's wonderful.

The film was set in the 70s as opposed to Marlowe's 50s, and perhaps the changing world can help explain part of it. It's a great adaptation and a great film, and yet another reason to love anti-heroes.

What I love about BladeRunner's anti-hero is that he's not an action hero badass like most modern ones are. He barely kills most of the replicants and when he faces up against the last. He doesn't do shit except get beat up.

He doesn't win, he doesn't save the day, and he winds up getting the fuck out of dodge as soon as possible.

@AlfaCharger: Yeah, I'm gonna have to error with psychopath. But he's one that we like. Kubrick's filmed portrayed him as more an anti-hero, this is true, but the book drives home his psychopathic nature.

The reason we don't get this driven home in the film is because we don't see his victims for long enough to identify with them. In the book, when they beat the old man to death in the street, we know that the young people of the 80s are the same as that old man in the future.

That's the fucked up shit.

aspiringexpatriate

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Charlie Jane Anders: Exactly. This is pretty tangential to your post, but it just seems odd to hear the Op cast as an antihero. The whole "gimmick" of Red Harvest and Nightmare Town (the short story it's based on) is everyone is evil and gets what they deserve. The Op is the arbiter of that morality. Killing is not perceived as immoral in the Op stories when it's deserved. The Op kills lots of people. Being hired isn't ambiguous either. The Op's ethics of being a hired gun are impeccably explored throughout the short stories.

Anyway, I debate the point because antihero actually encapsulates to very different forms, and I think it's worth avoiding further muddying of the waters. One is flawed, weak, ambiguous, immoral to start but ultimately does the right thing, becomes a true hero. Or wins/succeeds even within immoral or ambiguous circumstances. This is the bizarro hero and the term antihero fits naturally. But this, in most ways, is antithetical to the "original" antihero concept. The original antihero that emerged in the late Victorian/early 20th Century loses in the end, or does nothing, achieves no moral (or even immoral) victory throughout their trajectory while still managing to elicit our empathy.

I much prefer the antihero of the Joyce, Beckett, Dostoevsky mold to the Bruce Willis Die Hard/Han Solo/Mal variety. Both entertain, but they're really very different beasts using the same name.

Tim Faulkner

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @daveNYC: An anti-hero doesn't need to be trying to do the right thing.

Charlie Jane Anders

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @AlfaCharger: Whoops. Fixing that.

Charlie Jane Anders

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> --though, i suppose you could argue that society was dysfunctional first in order to make the 'mad scientists' mad. How many mad people grow up in USA 1960s Maple Streets?

designguybrown

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> Unless you're reading the extended ending in the book, Alex was nothing more than a rapist-murderer. At no point was he trying to do the right thing. The neat thing is that the fact that he was brainwashed in such a way to make him helpless in the real world makes you feel sympathy for such an utter bastard of a character.

daveNYC

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> I like the 'mad scientist' anti-hero category. It is truly all about 'them'. Almost like it is their way or the highway. It seems to question the simple good-bad spectrum - it is the third alternative. Everything else just seems to react to that character and their actions.
The other categories seem just to be good people surviving in bad/dysfunctional circumstances/societies. There is a certain predictability to them. They are the white hats with complexity. Even the ultra-selfish ones who happen to 'tally more bad guys than good' is just a reflection of the morally-grey situation/civilization they found themselves in.
If you take the dysfunctionality out of the setting (which may not be realistic), all these characters are 'Sgt. Joe Friday' - straight and narrow. Mad Scientists on the other hand are mad no matter wear you put them - hurrah for Jekyll.
Well -> my barely-educated, semi-well-read two cents.

designguybrown

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> Remember the typical Heinlein ethically ambiguous elder mentor figure who later turns out to have a heart of gold and/or redeems himself?

Mathmos

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @AlfaCharger: I think an anti-hero is somebody who does the right thing, but for the wrong reasons. Where as Alex from Clockwork Orange is just a psychopath.

B

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @darcymcgee:
Tehee. You said "orcs have rights too", made me think of "GRUNTS"...great book.
Talk about anti-heroes...

Miranda Kali

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> "Sergio Leone whistle/trumpet score playing in the background."

Let's give credit to Ennio Morricone for those scores.

I find Alex from A Clockwork Orange to be the perfect Anti Hero.

AlfaCharger

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @learned_hands: Almost threw Alphaville in there, but the "noir" section of this post was getting to be an essay in its own right... and I can barely remember anything about Alphaville off the top of my head. It definitely is a SF noir classic though.

Charlie Jane Anders

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Tim Faulkner: He's hired to "clean up" the town... and so he goes in and makes sure all the mobsters are dead. They're bad people, sure... but he's pretty calculating about making them kill each other.

Charlie Jane Anders

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Goodnightbabytron: Fantasy has plenty of anti-heros, although traditional Tolkien-esque high fantasy doesn't tend to. It tends to have more conventional White Hat / Black Hat roles.

If you define "anti-hero" as "he-who-looks-out-for-himself-first" then even Bilbo becomes a bit of an anti-hero archetype through the Lord of the Rings. He's at various points adamant about keep the ring for himself, and reluctant to allow those who wish to destroy it do so.

I think Gandalf the Grey could be seen as an anti-hero, gradually transitioning to Gandalf the White.

Orcs have rights too, after all, and thousands are slaughtered in the quest to end Sauron's rule.

Still, you're fundamental point is probably true: anti-heroes have more of a place in dystopias and we tend to view the future as possibly distopian and the past in a utopian manner. Since the fundamental divide between "science fiction" and "fantasy" *tends* to be "future" vs. "past", it seems there'll always be more anti-heroes in SciFi.

darcymcgee

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> consider also: anti-heroes originate in the post-world war collapse of shared value systems (include in this of course religion/mythology): heroes represent shared community values, and act in an essentially moral orientation. Anti-heroes are often simply survivors, or like your example of the western, those who show up to essentially "do a job" and then leave w/out any staying power, influence, or roots. It makes sense that sci-fi has loads of these characters-- Mad Max, Deckard (film version), Case, Ripley, etc-- b/c sci-fi rose to prominence after WWII and the consolidation of global market forces. So our sci-fi heroes don't act in a shared code of morals or values; they act in the gaping maw of unregulated market forces, exchanging themselves and their deeds for gasoline, a paycheck, or just plain old survival. and of course they remain outsiders b/c the "gobal market" no longer values centralized organization or authority.

organisms succeed when their organizational structure reflects the organizational structure of their environment; hence, the rise of a rootless, amoral "antihero" trying simply to survive in a decentralized, market-oriented and labor-alienated world.

[i'm sure you can and will identify exceptions, but keep in mind that those exceptions may be operating in a commodified kind of nostalgia for "old" heroes aimed at aging fanboys, cultural conservatives, and fascists-- i'm thinking here of the torrent of Marvel-Movie-Garbage that has run out of Hollywood of late. for the true 'children of the revolution,' there are no heroes--only survivors].

DSTRYA

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Miranda Kali:
Or duh...John Constantine. How did I not think of him first.
...('course now, I'm going to be thinking of fantasy anti-heroes all day)

Miranda Kali

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> Anti-heroes are more interesting to adults because they've obviously made the wrong choice in the past and are now making up for it in their own complex way. Adults look at their life and realize they've made mistooks and the anti-hero lets them think that they can make up for it.

With kids, it's more that they see someone that doesn't have to follow the rules and they don't want to follow the rules, so they're drawn to them.

Castle1914

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Goodnightbabytron: actually, I'd say it's the fact that the two come from different traditions. Fantasy, especially something like LOTR and Narnia, are from the romantic tradition where the hero is just about superhuman (in Aragorn's case at least suprahuman, although the elfin heritage plays a part) they simply cannot do wrong.

SciFi obviously has romantic heroes (Luke Skywalker), but tends to draw from pulp on the one side or realism on the other. Neither lends itself to perfection.

Any, hey, as long as we're talking about noir infulenced sci fi movie antiheroes, no love for Alphaville's Lemmy Caution?

learned_hands

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Charlie Jane Anders: I don't remember a single character that dies that wasn't in with the mob, trying to kill the Op, trying to kill someone else, or just simply evil and on a path to a quick death anyway and posed a substantial threat... and I don't remember anyone dying because the Op "wanted" them dead for merely personal reasons. Anyway, it's been a while, but from all the stories, the worse thing I remember the Op indulging in is an all-night bout of poker and whiskey.

Tim Faulkner

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Goodnightbabytron:
Dear me, but there are plenty examples of anti-heroes in fantasy. They may not be as prevalent as they are in science-fiction, but they are there.
..Vlad Taltos from Stephan Brusts "Jerheg" series comes to mind...

Miranda Kali

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> It's true that most people don't always know if they're always doing right...but I think SF often questions whether technology itself is inherently good or evil, and that forces the characters to have to answer the same questions.

Goodnightbabytron

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> I think it's the fact that anti-heros are easier to relate to. They have flaws like anybody else. Its also because people are attracted to the idea of a hero that breaks the rules from time to time.
Really, how many people can relate to Superman, or Luke Skywalker? People want a bit of dirt under the nails. They want to see conflict and amorality. ...Media of any kind thrives on that.

Miranda Kali

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> About 1/2 way thought the movie 'The Blair Witch Project' I started rooting for the Witch to finish those whiny kids off quickly. I wonder if that counts as being an anti-hero.

Also not Sci-Fi is Dexter the serial killer that only kills bad people.

I can think of far more anti-hero's outside of Sci-Fi than in it.

diverguy

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Charlie Jane Anders: Most definitely.

@Goodnightbabytron: And while LOTR doesn't really have anti-heroes, they litter the pages of The Silmarillion.

But neither takes away from the larger point, which I think is true. SF certainly utilizes the type much more often and more effectively.

And I'm sure there is something to be said about nostalgia for the "past" vs. fear/skepticism/cynicism of the future in that division somewhere (although that wouldn't explain the rise of the anti-hero in westerns...)

92BuickLeSabre

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> The Mal photo shopped in there with Solo is awesome! Nice job whoever did that.

CmdrHunt

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Tim Faulkner: I think the deaths he orchestrates aren't just of people trying to kill him. They're just of people he wants dead.

Charlie Jane Anders

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Tim Faulkner: It's really Philip Marlowe, from the same mold, who has all the appearance of being an antihero, but actually nearly always acts as a paladin.

Goodnightbabytron

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> @Goodnightbabytron: Actually fantasy has the uber anti hero of Stephen Donaldson's Thomas Covenant books... I haven't read them, but I've heard they're pretty anti.

Charlie Jane Anders

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> Is that Kevin Sorbo?

maliciousfallacy

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> In noir, nobody's as morally pure as the Continental Op. Orchestrating the deaths of evil men trying to kill him hardly pollutes the untouchable Op. Now Ned Beaumont or Sam Spade on the other hand...

Tim Faulkner

]]> <![CDATA[Why Do Anti-Heroes Rule Science Fiction?]]> The antihero also seems to be one of the traits that separates SF from Fantasy. My wife and I were discussing the antihero idea in relation to Harry Potter (having my kids read those books now brings on a new degree of analysis). We ended up concluding that even the characters who initially appear to fit an antihero mold are generally more misunderstood than misguided.

This whole thread brings me around to a new answer from the question of a few days ago, (paraphrasing), what story should get SF-ed up? Unforgiven, with the reformed-then-unreformed antihero icon, could be told in a fascinating way in an SF setting.

Interesting post, CJA. I guess this is kind of a rambling comment to it, but that's because it's elicited rambling thought -- my favorite kind.

Goodnightbabytron

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