Sure, stories the begin with "and they lived happily ever after" are dull. But I'm just saying that I've read both cliches of matriarchies, the granola gals and the leather gals, and I find both wanting in terms of realism. I mean think of real women leaders, Golda Meir, Thatcher, Indira, Elizbeth I, Clinton, Catherine the Great, etc. Would these historical figures fit into either cliche? No.

Anyway, on to your other point, I don't think Al Gore or anyone except grumpy ol' misanthropes (By that I mean human, both straight and gay, male or female.) would want to live in either society posited in this book.

corpore-metal

Jeff-Minor

Now, if the rest of you folks *really* want a novel that inverts fantasy stereotypes, try A Companion To Wolves, which Bear wrote with Sara Monette.

JoshJasper

Jeff-Minor

Undertow is kind of a mess, though.

All IMO, of course.
-Kle.

P.S. - all you naysayers: Sure, she isn't the best author of all time, but she does solid, workmanlike prose with some good ideas thrown in. It's just entertainment after all, and some of us are book addicts with a habit to feed. If I could only bring myself to read the Best Three Books of every year, I'd have to kill myself.

Klebert L. Hall

not to mention that they have identical plots - superspy killer in love, questions of loyataly, ecological damage, humans that are greedy, aliens that know better, magical god plot resolution, bam happily ever after

this is not to say i didn't like the premise or the setup, but I was like huh? at the end of carnival and then i couldn't believe she pulled the same exact crap to end undertow.

if you changed the names of the characters in each book you could put one chapter from carnival followed by one chapter fron undertow and follow the plot right along because the have the same plot.

notworkin

Jeff-Minor

I wouldn't call the Bene Gesserit role-models for feminism, because, as powerful as they are, all their power comes from manipulating men behind the scenes. Even though they have cool mind powers, to me they personify the old chestnut that "Oh, women have all the real power because they control men with sex!", which completely falls apart when someone asks "So why haven't we had a woman president yet?" I've only read the first "Dune" novel, though, so I may have missed something.

Death_Worm

@Pegritz:
-with all due respect-- wow. can you say j-a-d-e-d ?
Based on your standards of sci-fi that would mean only 3 or 4 worthwhile reads a year - i'd rather be dead.

@corpore-metal:
I think that any 'leader' group or category that encompasses a single-view or has a narrow set of values would fundamentally collapse or only exist in a police-state sort of set-up (well, except for the new york city swingers syndicate - but, i digress)
But how often do we come across a stimulating read that extolls a system of diversity, harmony, inter-value peacefulness, and such... i mean a story without conflict - can that be a workable, readable story??? Isn't that Creative Writing Rule Number 1? No clash of values -> no story?

designguybrown

Chryss

Jeff-Minor

CMG

otoh, i really enjoyed the book and i'll forgive its flaws.

i really want to see the "phoenix abased" sculpture

regis

Annalee Newitz

Sounds like you stopped right about at the awesome GAY BUTTSEX IN SPACE. Coincidence, or not?

I think we've got your number...

Liz Henry

noncornbatant

Yeah, I agree. Actually I'm rather tired of the both cliches. Matriarchies would not be pacificist, enlightened and tree-hugging granola gals nor would they by the nerd-boy fantasy of metal brassiered, psuedo-lesbian dominatrixes.

My guess is that a world mostly dominated politically and economically by women (straight or gay) would be no better or no worse than our world. Wars, economic exploitation and environmental damage would be roughly as common our world.

Basically at some point in collective human behavior and cultural evolution gender and sexual orientation just don't matter that much. Warfare, technology and economic abuse are artifacts of civilization, not male or female drives. The negative aspects of human civilization transcend gender and sexual orientation. Sorry but, we all to blame here.

Then again, I'm just a boy. Maybe I only believe that to divert blame.

corpore-metal

phoenix

Then a buddy of mine said, "Read Carnival. It's really cool."

So I did.

Or, rather, I tried. I got in twenty pages and said to myself, "Wow, no wonder Dust read like something that had been done to death by the end of the 1970s--all of her novels are like that."

The concepts behind Carnival were all exhausted by the end of the 1980s. And she doesn't even *tries* to update them in any way for the contemporary world. Just more of that idiotic eco-feminist utopianism that LeGuin dabbled with, Pamela Sargent flirted with, and Marge Piercy and Sheri S. Tepper absolutely drove into the damned ground. Carnival had all the originality of a soap-opera episode.

Warrior Amazons or be-robed, wisdom-spouting Earth Mothers, eco-feminist utopias are patently idiotic, and I cannot believe someone in the 2000s is even writing this crap. I can't believe people are BUYING it!

Females are no better than males at running things: both sexes will inevitably screw up anything they turn their hands to because, at the end of the day, we're still both *human*.

Pegritz

botanicidal

Oh wait, that's Fantasy..never mind. Although as bad as she bends genres, it might be relevant to this blog.. It's all rock and roll to me.

codydog

wright

donkeyjote

donkeyjote

Kostazu

Annalee Newitz

Tim Faulkner

Annalee Newitz

Ghede